On another thread about Big Boss and Solid Snake and who is better.
8881881 seems to think that FOXHOUND just showed up and let Snake kill them on the behalf of Liquid Snake so Solid Snake could progress onto the end and input the PAL key for him. To fresh eyes this claim seems ridiculous but 8881881 makes some valid arguments to why this could be true. I just can't bring myself to believe that FOXHOUND just let Solid Snake mutilate them so he could progress onwards. What do you guys think? Did FOXHOUND actually let Solid Snake win all those Boss Battles?
Remember Liquid state's......
Liquid: Did you actually think you got this far by yourself?
at the REX hanger.

If they were letting him win, why were they able to kill you?

Do you think Psycho Mantis really cared about what Liquid wanted, he says it himself he only wanted to kill as many people as possible. That alone lets you know that he was out to kill Snake.

Sniper Wolf and Raven had great stories and became friends with Snake after the fight, but I believe Wolf was there to kill.

You also don't shoot rockets out of a Hind at someone if you don't want them to die.

Yeah he has some good points, but saying they were letting him defeat them is ridiculous.

Exactly, and another thing my theroy is that Liquid only said that to make Snake and the player feel as though he didn't accomplish anything in hopes that it will throw Snake off in the inevitable upcoming fight. Basicaly I think Liquid lied to Snake about FOXHOUND letting him win. It might be true to some extent but only by a smidgen, Snake destroyed FOXHOUND all by himself.

Maybe Foxhound didnt know about Liquids real plans. I doubted Foxhound were really that important to Liquid considering he has the entire Genome army at his side and the funding/backing of Gurluckovich. Plus even if the Genome armys "brainwashing" effect started to wear off it wouldnt of matterd because Liquid was about to join forces with Gurluckovich and would have had his army anyways.

They never let him win. They knew that he never HAD the PAL key. They could have got it anyway, and used it. But Liquid told his people to kill Snake, but if they fail, they must help him. That is what Liquid meant by "playing with him". Liquid knew he was too strong to lose, so he told his men to kill him. Vulcan Raven couldn't, so he allowed Snake to gain the keycard. Liquid only said that Snake hadn't come that far by himself because he was bitter about the whole "gene" business. Solid Snake and Liquid Snake both knew that Foxhound was attempting to kill Snake.

Alright, lets clear this up.

First off, Foxhound was trying to kill Snake and if you've played the game I don't think you need examples to prove it. Each of them seemed to have their own motives in their battles with Snake and they were ready to kill or be killed.

Liquid's line of "we'll play with him a little longer" is spoken from the point of view of the bad guy. Ofcourse really does intend to play with him, (aka Master Miller for one example) and its said with a hint of arrogancy that any evil leader who has just lost a match (ala raven) would say to keep his cool and assure his pawns that he isn't worried at all.

Now here's the part with some discrepancy. Did Liquid know how to use the card keys from the beginning? Ocelot clearly asks Snake during the torture scene what the trick is to using the card. However, he could have been simply asking to find out whether Snake knew or not, so that Liquid could maniplulate him later on as Master to get him to input the code. Even if Liquid didn't know, he was probably hoping that Snake would eventually find out and activate it for him.

It's interesting to note that when Snake asks Liquid if he had this orchestrated from the beginning, Liquid responds with, "Huh?" (implying he didn't really know everything from the start and was just kind of playing into Snake's hand), "You didn't think you made it this far by yourself did you?" refers to all the things Liquid had done to get Snake to the final point of activating the code (letting him have card keys, manipulating him as Master). This however, does NOT mean that Foxhound was simply there to be killed by Snake and help him on his way to activating Rex. Depending on when Liquid knew Snake knew how to use the PAL key, (which was probably later on) we can assume most of the bosses were there to kill Snake under Liquid's orders or else for their own reasons.

FOXHOUND was just "toying" with Snake, nothing more. They surely tried to kill him (that was their goal after all) but they were also using him in order to get what Liquid wanted. The PAL codes/keys. After all if they were not trying to kill him... why Liquid threw a bunch of rockets at the comunications tower, or why Raven was shoting at him with his enormous barrel gun? By the way you put it, it just dont make sense.

Well, we know for sure that Vulcan Raven was holding back during this fight. He calls Liquid after it and says something like "I hope you are happy now. He got the card." And before the last fight betweeen them, he says "this time is for real."

He was holding back in the first fight and not in the second one.

What 88 says is valid to some extend. But it have too many flaws.

He believes that absolutely every fight they were holding back, including Liquid AFTER Rex was destroyed, and this have nothing to do with the PAL key anymore.

He also thinks that grey fox was holding back. But he only went to shadow moses for a fight to death with him. No sense holding back.

88 thinks everyone Snake has ever fought was holding back just for the simple reason that he is a Big Boss/Naked Snake fanboy.It's obvious to me now, I mean how and why would Liquid hold back on top and in REX it's just stupid.

the only bosses that held back were probably Raven in the M1 tank and Fox in the lab. Raven for the reason above. Fox i knew had to hold back i mean come on, he held up REX's leg(and most of it's weight with that) with his exoskeleton but when he punched snake all he did was recoil or flinch. The others gave it all that they had probably(Wolf and Raven on their second times had to i'm sure). The only way they might have gone easy is if they knew it was a game which they did in MGS1(remember to look at the back of the case?) so that's the only reason i see for the others.

Maybe Liquid on the Hind was holding back too. But this is just theorically. I agree with doubleo sigint.

By the way, Grey Fox was not holding back. If there is one boss battle you can be sure that he was not holding back it is Grey Fox. Just like The Fear is OH MY GOD THIS IS FAST and still can't dodge Biggies attacks, Fox is strong but can be hurt by Snakes attacks.

There is a fight in the elevator with 4 invisible guards with heavy machine guns. They could NEVER loose a fight to ANYONE. If it is possible that they loose to Snake, Grey Fox can loose too.

thermal goggles and poof their visible. Fox had to for the reason I stated above. i mean a guy who can pick up a genome and make an indent in the wall by slamming him up agains it and can hold a 2 ton walking tank had to hold back. one punch from that should have sent Snake flying into the wall. Maybe through it if he hit hard enough.

It is not about beeing invisible. It is about 4 guards with heavy machine guns in a small area. It is impossible. The bullet can travell in a velocity that it hits you before you blink. And they are FOUR!

But this is a gameplay gimmick. Just like the fact that Grey Fox is hurt by Snake. For the story Snake never gets hit by any bullet in the elevator and grey fox never hit a punch on him.

the gaurds had normal rifles didn't they? i never thought they were anyhting special except they had stealth(and you couldn't get it off one after you killed them!)

No. They have heavy machine guns. Many bullets per second. All of them would travel from the gun to the target as the moment the trigger is pulled before the target can even blink. You know what is a heavy machine gun and how deadly they are.

First of all, I never said Liquid was holding back after REX was destroyed. I'll explain how they were holding back, I'm busy right now. I'll even answer brazilian joker's argument on that topic. And please, if you don't have what it takes to refute my claim, stop calling me Fanboy.

They didn't just got mutilated, they were just holding back their true potential. Which is a suicide wish.

And when exactly did they kill you? If they had killed you, MGS2 would have never happened. They only killed you in Gameplay, which is only because we would experience some tough Boss battles, it has nothing to do with real storyline.

Psycho Mantis was the one that brought up the idea to use Snake as a bait for their cause. That alone lets you know that he was holding back.

It doesn't matter what your belief is, even I'd like to believe Snake actually defeated them, but facts differ. Raven was holding back, and even Sniper Wolf was holding back, Liquid ordered them to do so and they respected his order just like they did previously. After the battle ends. Raven himself said:-

Raven's thought that his existance was no longer need and he should do something the cause. That's why he was giving Snake hints and gave him security card so they would use Snake like they planned.

And Liquid confirmed that they were letting Solid Snake live to serve their purpose, after Snake did what they want, Liquid said:-

But shooting them ineffectively means you don't want them to die. And Liquid himself said that he was using Snake, there's nothing anyone can argue about.

Having a Fanboyish wet dream?

When Mantis came up with this plans, all the FOXHOUND's members were right there, including Ocelot and some Genome. And Liquid himself ordered Mantis, Raven, Ocelot, Sniper Wolf etc that he wants Snake to live.

Read it and read it carefully:-


Master : You found the key and even activated the warhead for us too. I
really must express my gratitude. Sorry to have involved you in
that silly shape memory alloy business. We weren't able to learn
the DARPA Chief's code. Even with Mantis' psychic powers, he
couldn't read his mind. Then Ocelot accidentally killed him during
the interrogation. In other words, we weren't able to launch the
nuclear device and we were all getting a little worried. Without
the threat of a nuclear strike, our demands would never be met.

Snake : What do you mean?

Master : Without the detonation codes, we had to find some other way. That's
when we decided...you might prove useful, Snake. First I thought
we might get the information from you, Snake. So I had Decoy
Octopus disguise himself as the DARPA Chief. Unfortunately Octopus
didn't survive the encounter. ...thanks to FoxDie.

Snake : You mean you had this planned from the beginning? Just to get me to
input the detonation code!?

Master : Huh? You didn't think you made it this far by yourself, did you?

Liquid said it when Snake was given the card to proceed their plans:-

Raven : Well, Boss. I hope you are happy. He got the card.

Man on Radio : ...We'll play with him a little longer...

Raven : You would be wise not to underestimate him.

That response was at the irony of Snake's ignorance.

And if Snake had died, he couldn't activate Metal Gear, so he had done something to make them hold off.

You should know the difference between "Speed" and "Reflexes". The Fear was quick, but as soon as he lands, you can hit him, he'll attack too, but you can hit him. Gray Fox had Superhuman Reflexes, he dodged Metal Gear REX's bullets, there's NO WAY Solid Snake can land a punch on him unless he is holding back, and he was holding back his true potential. Even if Snake hit him, how could it hurt him? His exoskeleton was extremely strong, way stronger than anything. He was just there to exhange a little hand to hand combat, that's it.

That's uncomparable. They can be hurt, Gray Fox can't be, especially this easily.

They were ordered by Liquid not to kill Snake, they may have missed their shot on purpose. Afterall, they were brainwashed by Mantis.

Now read it, and if you have some complaints, I'll reply later.

I called you fanboy because I thought you actually thought Liquid was holding back even after he had got the PAL keys, even after he said "You have served your purpose, you may die now".
Turns out you didn't say that, as you claim.
I was thinking why would anyone continuously persist to say that Solid Snake's enemies where holding back (letting him kill them!?). And even claim Vamp a kind of pointless character is stronger than Solid Snake, a man who has over come ridiculous odds a ridiculous amount of times. And then claim all of Big Bosses fights were all legitimate victory's even though it's extremely likely and feasible to think that The Boss let him win their battle, I'm not saying she did but it's more likely than FOXHOUND letting Solid Snake win.
it does help after all those claims, after all that defending of Big Boss and dethroning so to speak of Solid Snake that you have a sig of Big Boss and an avatar. Thats how I reached my conclusion of you being a BB fanboy.

Your point being?

Snake was hardly ignorant. He was flat out tricked, manipulated, or whathaveyou. I know what you mean though.

Like I said, it depends when Liquid actually knew he needed Snake's PAL Key. In my experience, the members of Foxhound I fought were not holding back.

I believe Gray Fox was holding back but in no way was FOXHOUND all there just so they could let Snake kill them. Even if they were suicidal they would want there last fight to be a fight to the death with Solid Snake.

When Raven said "my existence is no longer needed in this world" doesn't mean that Liquid said for him to let Snake win, he could of easily said that 'cos maybe Raven was being arrogant and Liquid was probably hinting to him that Snake is going to end up fucking him up. Remember Liquid knows how strong he is himself, therefore he knows how strong his brother is, in-fact I'm sure since the beginning Liquid knew that Snake was most likely going to fuck all of FOXHOUND up 'cos Liquid knows he himself can.
So knowing Snakes potential why would Liquid even need to say to FOXHOUND to let Snake win if they really wanted him to stay alive they could have avoided him all together.

You see Raven even says you would should not underestimate him, if they wanted to let him win why would they need not to underestimate him. The stronger he is the better right?

My point being is that he wasn't referring to playing him as an "arrogant bad guy". In that context, he clearly mean let's manipulate/use him a little longer.

By ignorant I meant ignorant about Liquid being using him all along.

Liquid has done a pretty good explanation about this himself. He himself said that he would have no way to activate it, then he got the idea of using Snake from Mantis, and when Snake served his purpose, Snake may die.

Little bit of semantics will help. See, Liquid said his existance IS no longer needed, Liquid would have said "his existance WILL no longer be needed" if he meant what you're saying.

Is that why he was constantly saying "Don't kill him", "I want him to live", "We need him alive" etc? Even when Ocelot and Sniper Wolf said they'll kill him.

Just because he was advising Liquid not to underestimate him doesn't mean that Liquid didn't underestimated him. Liquid repeated the same thing over and over. Even Raven knew that if he accidently killed Snake, there goes their plans. And Liquid confirmed it.

Haha, and I say its both. He says 'lets play with him' arrogantly. Get the picture?

Hmm..true enough. Mantis did seem to come up with the idea of using Snake or at least getting information from him. Octopus told Snake how to use the PAL keys for the detenation overide system. But he also claimed that there were three keys to input. So did Foxhound know the trick to using them? I'm not so sure. Its possible that Liquid first heard about the shape memory alloy as Master when Otacon relayed the info to Snake via codec. Therefore, all the previous battles with Foxhound could have been the real deal (as in trying to kill Snake) because if Snake didn't have the Pal keys or didn't know how to use them...then they probably wanted him out of their way.

I think it makes more sense that Foxhound was trying to kill Snake, get the key and activate MG themselves. Snake wasnt needed for that to happen

That doesn't really make sense to me, we don't even know how Liquid said it, we don't see when he says it, that conversation happened offscreen. For all we know he could have said it in a completely different context and Raven could have interpreted it in his own twisted way.

When Liquid said that Snake was tied up in a torture machine and Ocelot and Wolf were threatening to kill him. Infact if it was planned that FOXHOUND would get themselves slaughtered from the beginning then why would Liquid need to even say that, why would Wolf threaten to kill him.

You didn't answer my question. Why would Liquid not have to underestimate him if he wanted him to live through to the end, more like he was overestimating him.

This still stands;why would Liquid even need to say to FOXHOUND to let Snake win if they really wanted him to stay alive they could have avoided him all together.

*SIGH*

I'll handle this later.

God, they didn´t let him win. Couldn´t you see none of them were as loyal as that to Liquid? They shared his ideals, but i doubt they were willing to die for him, putting their life on the line yes, but not die because they were loyal to him. Besides each one of them had his reasons, like a personal issue, excepting Mantis who had it after he met Snake.
Wolf, becuase she considered Snake as his prey. Ocelot, obvious, wanted a match with him and had to complete his mission Solidus´ ordered also he may have wanted to fight him just to see his skills because of the relation he had with Solidus and Liquid. Then Raven, he faced Snake before and realized he was a true warrior, that time in the tank Raven knew none of them would die. And Mantis, well he possibly thought he could read Snake´s mind or something, but after meting Snake, iot became really personal. Those fights having those meanings is one of the best things MGS1 has in my opinion.

I think he means story wise they were holding back, not gameplay wise. Unless you played with the game over if killed/discovered option, then you had more chances if you messed up and died. Story being in order to progress, you beat the members who were holding back so you(Snake) can activate metal gear. I'm just talking from his point of view, which is interesting.

LOL, I can't believe this topic of discussion is being made out to be deeper than it actually is.

Foxhound weren't holding back. If they were, the shadow moses incident for the most part would have been a complete waste of time. Do you honestly think all of which happened was to just simply get snake to make use of the key cards? Of course not!

With regards to the comment about raven telling liquid not to underestimate snake, well, if liquid is stronger than the members of FH and if liquid at this point was under the impression that snake was the dominant son, it would stand to reason that, liquid knew full well that FH never stood a chance against snake, so how can FH be accused of holding back?? It doesn't make any sense!

Raven and snake's 1st fight came down to a stalemate, pretty much and Raven then tried again and failed. Every other FH member and genome soldier who were slaughtered and died were there to simply kill or be killed, there's no two ways about it.

Hell, all you have to do is look at MGS2 as an example. The plant chapter being a recreation of shadow moses. On top of arsenal, Ocelot declares to all that had Raiden failed with fatman, the excercise would have ended there. This means if Raiden who was used as a puppet much like snake was in the previous game had died, then the whole plan would have been over. What is more interesting is, solid snake showing up in the big shell was an unexpected factor. Had snake not run into vamp, vamp wouldn't have told fortune and it was pure luck that fortune, mistaking Raiden for snake didn't kill him.

So you see, its got nothing to do with holding back, its a case of kill or be killed and that is exactly what happened. Snake killed FH, end of story.

I believe that liquid wanted snake to get that far, but i dont think there is any chance that fox hound let him wim solid snake is just invincible :P

SNAKE-YOU were the one in the m-1 tank ?
-musta been a tight fit for a big boy like you.


RAVEN-{laughs}--BUT that was not a true battle.



the conversation with raven and snake was something that always stuck with me.

It wasn't a true battle because Raven was in a Tank. He meant that in order to have a true battle you both should be on a level playing field.

Raven had no reason to hold back...he already knew he was probably going to die. liquid told him.

Perhaps Foxhound really tried to kill Snake, but Liquid knew they would be unsuccessfull.

Liquid would pretty much know that a soldier like Solid Snake would succeed in eliminating his Foxhound comrades. It wouldn't matter if Snake died either, because all the terrorists needed was the card key.

Then why did Liquid not send anyone sronger after Snake. Therefore eliminating the risk of Snake ruining his plans.

Because Liquid wanted to prove to himself and to Snake that he was indeed stronger and better than Snake. I think Liquid always new that he would end up fighting him and his FOXHOUND comrades would get killed by Snake at the end of it all.

yeah i kinda forgot that when you really think about it the pal codes where kinda vital to acsess metal gear and stuff.
but it seemed hard strange that the main villain would help the hero of piece through the game

They're both black and at the end before the credits it says that Singint joined ARPA. Cased closed.

Dude wrong topic.

I really doubt that the members of Foxhound in metal gear solid would go easy on Snake... remember the Hind D boss battle

Yep, yep now hopefully 811811 whatever has learned his lesson.