Young Ocelot

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Young Ocelot
Topic Started: Jul 16 2008, 10:29 PM (421 Views)
Shyne-Bryght	Jul 16 2008, 10:29 PM Post #1
Come forth for the cattle call Posts: 2,895 Group: The Special Forces Member #2,600 Joined: June 23, 2006 Favourite Metal Gear Title? Metal Gear Solid	Hmm, couldn't find another thread with this, but a few things puzzle me after just completing MGS3 again, my view of Ocelot in MGS3 was a young kid, who skipped between trying to kill Big Boss to becoming suddenly friendly, like on the WIG "That was gun" etc. It confuses me a lot, we see him shooting at BB clearly trying to kill him, yet he aided BB against Volgin, didn't continue to attack after the 'showdown' on the WIG. Also, looking between Ocelot in MGS3 and Ocelot in MGS and what I've seen of MGS4, I can't make a clear link between the characters, he certainly didn't seem power hungry and as cold hearted as he is shown as an old man, and he looked away at various points throughout BB's torture scene, and he absolutely loves torture in MGS. I haven't played MGS4, or Portable Ops, so some parts of Ocelot's past may be revealed in them, so can anyone elaborate on what made such distinct changes to Ocelot's character please? One other thing, he was working for the CIA, and listening to the conversation after the credits, he had BB to thank for a few things that helped, so why would he want to kill him anyway? Edited by Shyne-Bryght, Jul 16 2008, 10:30 PM.
	Did you sleep here?


IceGoat	Jul 16 2008, 10:40 PM Post #2
LIQUID!!! Posts: 200 Group: FoxHound Member #8,698 Joined: June 18, 2008 Favourite Metal Gear Title? Metal Gear Solid 3: Snake Eater	I really wish I was more in-the-know on Ocelot, as he is my favorite character, but I have only recently started to try to understand the characters and motivation instead of just looking at the plot and the big picture. It has been said many times before that Ocelot came to admire and respect Big Boss, which is shown by the fact that he is amazing at CQC, having picked up many of those skills from Big Boss. (This is seen in MGS4). Another idea (mostly coming up with this on the spot): when he first met Big Boss, he really did want to kill him. When BB basically owned him and embarrassed him etc, he started to slowly change his view of BB. Since he wasnt really working with GRU or KGB, maybe he never really intended to kill him, but it was all just an act. It would be an amazing at in that case because there is clearly a personal grudge. Alright I just clarified this in my mind: First, he wants to kill Big Boss. Then, Big Boss ownes him in CQC. Finally, Ocelot realizes that he can't beat Big Boss so he might as well learn from him. I dunno, but it seems I like talking about Ocelot a lot. Anyway hope that clears something up...
	Ocelot is the greatest character in Meal Gear history. Period.


skywalker	Jul 16 2008, 10:41 PM Post #3
Light Saber trumps anything Posts: 1,887 Group: The Patriots Member #1,639 Joined: January 12, 2006	Just remember, Ocelot is working to suit his own needs. In the torture scene, he is still playing a part to fool Colonel Volgin. In the Colonel Volgin fight he is just enjoying the battle. He has now loyatly to anyone so he chose to cheer for Snake. After the fight he goes back to fighting with Snake. To explain the Wig, he is stops fighting with Snake because he is not there to kill him, he knows that he can use him later on and that he will be a valuable assett to have. Ocelot has no friends or enemy's really, he just uses people and enjoys the battle. Just like when you fight him for the first time in Snake Eater, he just loves the fight. What you have seen of Ocelot in MGS4 is not Ocelot, Liquid has taken over Ocelots body so it is Liquid, not Ocelot. Hope I answered your question.
	We Have Refluxe! Boss Fight Faq


IceGoat	Jul 16 2008, 10:50 PM Post #4
LIQUID!!! Posts: 200 Group: FoxHound Member #8,698 Joined: June 18, 2008 Favourite Metal Gear Title? Metal Gear Solid 3: Snake Eater	skywalker Jul 16 2008, 10:41 PM What you have seen of Ocelot in MGS4 is not Ocelot, Liquid has taken over Ocelots body so it is Liquid, not Ocelot. Spoiler: click to toggle Of course you know that it was in fact Ocelot himself, he was only acting like Liquid to fool the Patriots (you are a Patriot! ). It is unclear to me why he needs to act like Liquid, but either way it further proves the lengths that Ocelot goes to. Great character. )
	Ocelot is the greatest character in Meal Gear history. Period.


Shyne-Bryght	Jul 17 2008, 10:24 AM Post #5
Come forth for the cattle call Posts: 2,895 Group: The Special Forces Member #2,600 Joined: June 23, 2006 Favourite Metal Gear Title? Metal Gear Solid	Well, I can understand he builds a respect for BB, cause at the end of their fight on the WIG he tells him "I've picked up a few new moves", and Ocelot is obvious a very smart guy. But to me, if he started looking like he enjoyed the torture, I think Volgin would respect or enjoy that. Also, if he finds Snake kinda crucial to aid his own mission, he's taking a bit of a damn risk in firing bullets at him. Now I can understand The Boss throwing him off the bridge and all cause she knows him inside out better than he does, and she knows he will survive it and hopes he will leave, and until Volgin nukes the research facility, and her mission briefing changes, she knows that Snake is perfectly capable of carrying it out.
	Did you sleep here?


Tamashi_7	Jul 19 2008, 09:43 AM Post #6
Komm, S�sser Tod Posts: 5,395 Group: DEAD CELL Member #3,061 Joined: September 8, 2006	Ocelot and Big Boss: The key word here is 'infatuation' - Ocelot was infatuated with Big Boss because of his sheer technique and approach to things. Ocelot isn't used to getting beaten, so when Big Boss whooped his ass at the abandoned warehouse and let him live - even giving him advice - he dwelled on this guy who was able to overcome him so easily. Compare this to Sniper Wolf, if you will - she would obsess over her targets... she could even fall in love with them - the very same thing can be said about Ocelot when it comes to Big Boss. Ocelot aided Big Boss in Snake Eater because he was ordered to - after all, he was working for the United States - but, at the same time, Ocelot still wanted to prove that he could be better than Big Boss. This is why he meets Big Boss before the cave to fight, and also why he doesn't want his Ocelot Unit to interfere, because he has something to prove to himself. Over the course of the game, however, Ocelot comes to admire Big Boss - holding him in a very high regard, because no matter what he tries, Ocelot cannot beat him. From Ocelot's admiration and infatuation with Big Boss, he tries to be like Big Boss. An example of this can be taken from after the torture scene, when Ocelot steals Big Boss' food to eat himself - something which we hear from EVA over the radio. Portable Ops Spoilers: Spoiler: click to toggle We see in Portable Ops that Ocelot still, after all the years, holds a massive admiration for Big Boss. As such, he wishes for Big Boss to join The Patriots organization. MGS4 Spoilers: Spoiler: click to toggle We see in MGS4 that Ocelot had abandoned all of The Patriots' ideals and secretly joined EVA in trying to revive Big Boss, as Ocelot thought Big Boss had the right interpretation of The Boss' vision and genuinely admired him on a greater level than Zero. After all those years, Ocelot stayed loyal to Big Boss and his beliefs. Their friendship went above that of normal people. Ocelot and Torture: During the time of Snake Eater, Ocelot wasn't used to the idea of torture. This is why he shies away during Big Boss' torture - not only that, but because he's seeing the one man he respects being humiliated. But, by the end of Big Boss' torture, he sees how it can either make or break somebody - it is the ultimate test. He witnesses Big Boss withstand the torture... which, in turn, makes Ocelot admire him even more. So, the idea of torture becomes fascinating to Ocelot, which is why he says to Snake that it's really not all that bad... but the ultimate form of expression. Ocelot as a Person: Unfortunately, most of what we see of Ocelot is deception - we never really get to see his true colours, but we do know them from small hints. Ocelot was never really a power-hungry back-stabber at heart - those are just things he had to make myself into to get the job done - a job preordained by his feelings at heart. MGS4 Spoilers: Spoiler: click to toggle At heart, he is somebody who had a great admiration and faith in his friend, Big Boss. He lived and died to help him... and that's all there is to it, in the end. Amazing how simple our motivations can be in life, huh? Hope this all helped. Edited by Tamashi_7, Jul 19 2008, 09:47 AM.
	The Hedgehog's Dilemma *DC AWARD WINNER* Spoiler: click to toggle


Shyne-Bryght	Jul 19 2008, 10:12 AM Post #7
Come forth for the cattle call Posts: 2,895 Group: The Special Forces Member #2,600 Joined: June 23, 2006 Favourite Metal Gear Title? Metal Gear Solid	Yes it has helped, thankyou Tam. It links in nicely with what The Boss said, that there are no true enemies, and they just change with the times. Through this game, and some help in your explanation Tam, I see a better side to Ocelot, and don't see him as an enemy. However this in only MGS3, I still can't get around the massive change in character I see from MGS3 Ocelot to the other games.
	Did you sleep here?


Lun-Sei Sleidee	Jul 19 2008, 10:13 AM Post #8
Don't even think about using auto-fire, or I'll know. Posts: 259 Group: Outer Heaven Member #9,141 Joined: June 30, 2008 Favourite Metal Gear Title? Metal Gear Solid 3: Snake Eater	Tamashi_7 Jul 19 2008, 09:43 AM An example of this can be taken from after the torture scene, when Ocelot steals Big Boss' food to eat himself - something which we hear from EVA over the radio. Hey, I didn't know about that scene!!! Pray tell me, what does Ocelot do and how do I trigger that dialogue with EVA? Back on Ocelot subject. I think everything about him has already been explained by the previous posts. Also, it doesn't make a discrepance that in MGS3 he would be quite charmed by Naked Snake's torture but at the same time repulsed. It's just how I felt during that scene too.
	猫は蛇への擬態を好むものだ


Tamashi_7	Jul 19 2008, 10:22 AM Post #9
Komm, S�sser Tod Posts: 5,395 Group: DEAD CELL Member #3,061 Joined: September 8, 2006	Shyne-Bryght Jul 19 2008, 10:12 AM However this in only MGS3, I still can't get around the massive change in character I see from MGS3 Ocelot to the other games. You just have to remember that what we see of him as an old man isn't really him, but rather him acting to achieve a desired goal. Lun-Sei Sleidee Hey, I didn't know about that scene!!! Pray tell me, what does Ocelot do and how do I trigger that dialogue with EVA? It's nothing of dire importance - just call EVA after busting out of prison and Big Boss will ask where his food went, to which EVA responds with Ocelot stealing it for reasons Big Boss cannot comprehend.
	The Hedgehog's Dilemma *DC AWARD WINNER* Spoiler: click to toggle


Shyne-Bryght	Jul 19 2008, 06:26 PM Post #10
Come forth for the cattle call Posts: 2,895 Group: The Special Forces Member #2,600 Joined: June 23, 2006 Favourite Metal Gear Title? Metal Gear Solid	Hmm, thinking of the bigger picture, with him working for(?) The Patriots, he was probably gonna betray Liquid in MGS, and we know he betrayed Gurlukovich to get Ray, so, until I play MGS4 I'm guessing its the only game where we see his true character? And is it similar to his younger self?
	Did you sleep here?


MachinegunHedgehog	Jul 19 2008, 10:41 PM Post #11
Light Infantry Posts: 113 Group: Members Member #7,206 Joined: April 17, 2008 Favourite Metal Gear Title? Metal Gear Solid 2: Sons of Liberty	I would think so. His true character should shine through in MGS4
	I'm No Hero...Never Was...Never Will Be


Tamashi_7	Jul 20 2008, 04:16 AM Post #12
Komm, S�sser Tod Posts: 5,395 Group: DEAD CELL Member #3,061 Joined: September 8, 2006	Must... resist... urges... to... spoil... Spoiler: click to toggle No, not really - he pretends to be Liquid throughout the entire game. It isn't till the very end that we get to see a small glimpse of his true self... most of it is implied, though, as I was saying earlier.
	The Hedgehog's Dilemma *DC AWARD WINNER* Spoiler: click to toggle


Salazhar	Jul 25 2008, 04:26 PM Post #13
Posts: 582 Group: FoxHound Member #9,344 Joined: July 11, 2008 Favourite Metal Gear Title? Metal Gear Solid	Any way isn't Ocelot a triple spy??? Who knows what side he's on.
	MPO+ USERNAME- [PRG]-SALAZHAR Gray Fox-"I will kill you, or you will kill me, it makes no difference!" Solid Snake- "I make my own future"


Sybris	Jul 29 2008, 06:52 PM Post #14
Light Infantry Posts: 259 Group: Members Member #9,097 Joined: June 28, 2008 Favourite Metal Gear Title? Metal Gear Solid	During Snake Eater he is on Volgin's side... but afterwards he gains respect for a certain someone. He spies on the CIA, Liquid, Solidus and The Patriots, but he's only really working for one side.
	Why so serious?


[X] Entity	Jul 29 2008, 11:46 PM Post #15
SOP free. Posts: 465 Group: Outer Heaven Member #9,281 Joined: July 8, 2008 Favourite Metal Gear Title? Metal Gear Solid	Not only did Big Boss beat him well with CQC, but he convinced Eva to spare his life. He may not have known the specifics, but I figure he probably thought of this. The CQC he learned that we saw him use on the WIG before the draw was something he got from the Boss, actually. He wasn't in a position to have yet learned it from Big Boss, as he had only had his ass kicked with it by him. He was the Boss' and the Sorrow's child and was in proximity to the Boss before Big Boss completed his mission. He "picked up a few new moves". Not that he didn't learn more CQC from Big Boss...later. Perhaps he felt a certain transcendental connection to Big Boss, being that they were both "sons of the Boss", though in different senses. EDIT: Apparently it's canon that he developed his own style of CQC simply by encountering Big Boss. It's in the database. I find this absurd and think it's the theory I posited about the Boss is more plausible. I don't know that you can learn much by getting your ass kicked almost literally in seconds a couple of times. Ocelot genuinely came to respect Big Boss, hence asking him his real name and telling of his. Both of them got a good grin out of the whole situation on the WIG, I think. It seems the respect became mutual. In the call he placed at the end, he sounded fond when speaking of "John". I think young Ocelot's arrogance was within reason, even if he had a flair for the theatrical and over the top. He realized he ought to respect Big Boss as a warrior and a man when he was unable to back his own egotistical words up through his actions. Ocelot said he realized after watching Big Boss tortured that he realized "it wasn't so bad" and was "the ultimate form of expression". He only began to develop a penchant for it thereafter. I think Ocelot approaches torture the same as battle. He enjoys watching the struggle one faces when tortured and probably comes to respect anybody who beats him at his own game. If he didn't restrain his big talk with subduing his actions at the proper times, he would not have lived long. Pride comes before a fall -- or as one ATF agent showed us -- a .40 caliber bullet from a Glock to the foot. While real Ocelots are proud creatures, they are also smart. An Ocelot almost never goes after prey larger than itself and unlike many cats, it doesn't avoid water and can swim well. They can also be very territorial. When Ocelot ages, he quite simply deserves an Academy Award. Just look at his performances on Liquid, Solidus and many more thereafter. Guns of the Patriots will clarify some things for you. I hope you get to experience it soon. Quote: During Snake Eater he is on Volgin's side... but afterwards he gains respect for a certain someone. He spies on the CIA, Liquid, Solidus and The Patriots, but he's only really working for one side. He wasn't really on Volgin's side. His actions towards him when Big Boss fights him and the way he talks about things on the phone in the end both demonstrate that. He was a good actor, even then. He was ADAM under the KGB, spying on behalf of the Director of the Central Intelligence Agency. This was on Wikipedia, I found it interesting: Quote: Ocelot plays a minor role in the plot of Portable Ops and appears as a recruitable character in the game, his appearance unchanged from MGS3. He is in league with Gene and near the end of the game, he assassinates his former employer, the DCI, and reports to a new employer, an unidentified character (revealed to be Spoiler: click to toggle Major Zero in Metal Gear Solid 4) who invites Ocelot to join his new organization, The Patriots. That section of the entry is not sourced, so if somebody who's played through Portable Ops could confirm that information, it would be nice. We know from Guns of the Patriots that Spoiler: click to toggle Ocelot was a founding member of the Patriots, along with Zero, Paramedic and Big Boss and Eva. It seems Ocelot was an agent of the Philosophers until the Patriots were created. Edited by [X] Entity, Jul 31 2008, 03:35 PM.



-Big_Boss-	Jul 30 2008, 06:55 PM Post #16
The Greatest Soldier Who Ever Lived Posts: 389 Group: Outer Heaven Member #7,224 Joined: April 19, 2008 Favourite Metal Gear Title? Metal Gear Solid	Sybris Jul 29 2008, 06:52 PM During Snake Eater he is on Volgin's side... but afterwards he gains respect for a certain someone. He spies on the CIA, Liquid, Solidus and The Patriots, but he's only really working for one side. No he was ADAM, he was supposed to aid Big Boss on his mission the entire time.
	MGO Character Name: Biggest Boss Thanks to Splitter for the sig. "This is good... Isn't it?" -Me (in reference ot the Outer Heaven Private Forum) The Revolution is here. "C'mon you sons-of-bitches! Do you want to live forever?" ~ GySgt Dan Daley at the Battle of Belleau Wood WWI "Retreat? Hell we just got here!" ~ Captain Lloyd Williams, USMC at the Battle of Belleau Wood WWI


[X] Entity	Jul 31 2008, 12:54 PM Post #17
SOP free. Posts: 465 Group: Outer Heaven Member #9,281 Joined: July 8, 2008 Favourite Metal Gear Title? Metal Gear Solid	The elimination of Colonel Volgin was of benefit to the DCI, who ostensibly wanted the Philosophers revived, based on the phone call Ocelot places at the end of Snake Eater. Part of what makes Ocelot so cool is his enigmatic nature. I think he was intended to be far more rudimentary in Metal Gear Solid than he turned out to be in future installments. The retcon works, though, I think. I don't find it sloppy, even if it is all a bit convoluted.



jackedmofo	Aug 3 2008, 10:19 AM Post #18
Jail Guard Posts: 17 Group: Members Member #9,522 Joined: July 21, 2008 Favourite Metal Gear Title? Metal Gear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots	[X Entity,Jul 29 2008, 11:46 PM] When Ocelot ages, he quite simply deserves an Academy Award. Just look at his performances on Liquid, Solidus and many more thereafter. Yes this is very true. He fools everyone even in his early years as is seen in mgs3. The story of ocelot is basically him gaining the trust of a certain group then disposing of them when they are no longer useful. Edited by jackedmofo, Aug 3 2008, 10:19 AM.



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