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| Philosophy! (Topic - Philosophy Of Self); I want ALL your Views! | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jul 28 2008, 07:48:04 PM (1,021 Views) | |
| Otacon_Hal | Jul 28 2008, 07:48:04 PM Post #1 |
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"May One Just Man Become An Army."
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I pose the question, What is it that constitutes an individual? How can we know ourselves? How do we know we exist? There is no 'right' answer but I would like to know what you all think. Now, I know this will largely depend on wether or not you take a Scientific,Religious,Darwinist etc, view to the questions. Every 'state' you are in will ultimutely effect your answer, so just......off-the-top-of-your-head, what do those questions mean to you.. We all love to play Metal gear, which is heavily effected by Philosopy, Genetics and the question of life and exactly what exhistance is. I don't know how you all feel about it in a unfiltered state but I am certain everyone has an opinion! Do you even care? Does this pick at your mind? Do you WANT to pursue somewhat of a grasp on it? Why Did Hal Wear A Turtleneck The Whole Time? I'd love to know! Discuss! |
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| ADJ | Jul 28 2008, 09:11:14 PM Post #2 |
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ABSOLUTELY BANG
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I'll move this to Opinions, and ponder on your questions a bit. |
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| Shyne | Jul 29 2008, 01:28:15 AM Post #3 |
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10 Year Vet
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I really can't think on it too much, but I'd mostly say nobody can answer those questions, we just gotta make our way through our lives, trying to achieve the goals our upbringing has given up and the expectations placed on us by the people around us. |
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| Roy | Jul 29 2008, 08:21:13 PM Post #4 |
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I wont deny that I am a bad boy =)
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![]() Yeah err so anyway, my thoughts: My answer would actually be no to the four questions you posed at the end (except the last one, he wore one throughout the whole of MGS4, he must love turtlenecks!). I don't think I need to worry about such things. If I did concern myself which what constitutes as an individual and eventually through a lot of 'soul searching' and found the answer to that question, what would I have gained? I can't see no advantage whatsoever in know such answers. I do think from time to time about existence though. Like my ol' chum vivi says above, how do we know we exist? This may be one huge dream and you writting that very message may mearly be part of my imagination. This could all be a dream. What is existence anyway? |
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| Otacon_Hal | Jul 29 2008, 08:55:31 PM Post #5 |
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"May One Just Man Become An Army."
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By that right then your post becomes redundant. It possibly would have saved you time to just type "I don't believe this will mean anything to me." and left it at that lol. (Q.E.D) If this does not concern you then you miss nothing by not clicking this thread my friend ![]() P.S (To your only 'conclusion' ) Nahh...I'm certain that is not it! We must find the deeper hidden meaning behind the appropriation of the garment thus far known to the world as 'Turtleneck' and firmly in the posession of Hal. There IS a deeper meaning!! DISCUSS! *High Cheekboned Grin* Edited by Otacon_Hal, Jul 29 2008, 08:57:50 PM.
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| kisskissbangbang | Jul 29 2008, 09:52:27 PM Post #6 |
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Hum-pa-dump
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Ok then heres my analysis on this So how do we know where we all started? Well theres always the theory of evolution. However Darwins theory of evolution is easily refutable, since it has so many inconsistencies that spread further than the great wall of China. I do believe in evolution. However, I dont believe we somehow mutated Xmen style from monkeys...because thats just plain silly. Where are all the half monkey-half human breeds? Why all of a sudden did evolution of that stop? Why only have some monkeys changed? Why are they ALL the same still? Shouldnt there be differences in their genetics if some were evolving? Again, the theory that I am a monkey, or once was, is just plain silly i believe. Genesis 2 states that God created man out of dust...from the ground...and god breathed life into his nostrils....only then did it become alive. The Bible doesnt prove anything, just like science does NOT prove that we evolved from monkeys or similar species. And yes, there is plenty of evidence and Facts, that 20 years later scientists always say "oh well that wasnt accurate, we are changing our findings, but TRUST us we are right THIS time." Remember Dinosaurs was who birds evolved from, that was "Fact"? Then just a week ago that isnt true anymore?? Yes, they are supposedly "facts", very quaint of course. Religion says its all about faith, scientific theory like evolution is all about "facts"....yet both have as little evidence as each other. So i can see the sillyness of evolution when it pretends to have more reason behind it. Science was pretty sure the world was flat up until a few years back relatively speaking. Science was also sure the earth was the center of the universe. Science was also sure the atom could never be split. Science always is so "sure" of itself, even though they know they are guessing and likely to have a different guess in the future. Well I also find it cute and strange how certain people will believe in sciences NEW "truth" thats only been around 30 years over about 4000 years of human history and an ancient book. Especially when this "truth" of science will change in another 30 years, as it always does. Shows how fickle and naive people are, how willing they are to jump on a bandwagon. As I already said, religion needs faith, the same amount of faith needed to believe in sciences unprovable claims. Difference is science claims to be more logical and religion is just silly, yet both are the same in proof and faith needed. |
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| Trunks | Jul 30 2008, 01:13:50 AM Post #7 |
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Light Infantry
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Who's to say it stopped? Anyway, when I try to think about this kind of stuff I feel overwhelmed, and don't know where to begin. |
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| G.J.V. | Jul 30 2008, 02:04:12 AM Post #8 |
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DC For Life
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2 things: 1) Humans are not supposed to have evolved from monkeys, monkeys and humans are supposed to have evolved from a now-extinct species often referred to as 'the missing link' 2) It never said it was Xmen style mutation. Xmen style would imply a huge mutation, when in fact, it builds up in thousands of tiny mutations. Some people find mutations in themselves even in modern times (e.g. having completely different eye/hair colour from either of their parents, having slightly elongated/shortened fingers in comparison to their parents) over time these build up until pretty much everything is different, which is why it takes millions of years to happen.
There are differences. Every monkey is as different from the others as humans are, we just don't notice it as clearly because we're not around them as often as we are people. Height, hair colour, eye colour, jaw size etc are all caused by genetics. Since the monkeys do have these differences, they are not genetically the same as each other. As for my answers to Otacon_Hal's questions: 1) Do I care? Not really. I know that I exist, I don't need to know how, know why or be able to prove it. I know it and that's enough for me. 2) Does this pick at my mind? Occasionally I do find myself staring into space posing these and similar questions, but as I said above, I don't really need an answer. 3) Do I want to pursue a grasp on it? Not really, but if someone else figured it out, I'd be happy to listen. 4) Why did Hal wear a turtleneck the whole time? Well, they do look rather good on him, wouldn't you say? Edited by G.J.V., Jul 30 2008, 02:09:25 AM.
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| Shyne | Jul 30 2008, 02:35:21 AM Post #9 |
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10 Year Vet
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But then no two natural living creatures are genetically identical, it just isn't the way it should be, genes were created with multiple options, hair, eye colour etc, it's basically a game of chances and odds depending on the two gene pools you are born from which hair or eye colour has the highest chance of becoming the dominant or recessive set, meaning its like have a gigantic randomiser engine for the human genetic code, with only a few small details tipping the scales a little. |
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| kisskissbangbang | Jul 30 2008, 08:41:00 PM Post #10 |
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Hum-pa-dump
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As a whole, changing from a monkey to a human being is a huge mutation, your just thinking about it in stages. Uhh the modern theory of evolution still says we are of primate descent, that we were once like them but mutated like Xmen from them. Remember i said like, its a comparison. So these smug scientists or evolution believers who look down on creationists as if they have more proof or are more intelligent are obviously pretty ignorant. Not sure if you know, but evolution is called a "theory" not a fact....(Only is fact with modern day changes i.e height etc. the theory comes in with what caused these changes when it comes to 1000's of years ago) Yes science has proven we have evolved, duh. WE can even prove that in the last 150 years about humans changing height on average. Science DOESNT prove that we evolved from monkeys or from fish etc. It does have some evidence to support the THEORY.
Your not understanding it properly. Of course there is differences in monkeys images and personalities and genes. The same thing as humans and practially ALL animals. What im saying is that why did the evolution involving darwins theory just cease? Why havent the constantly evolved into humans? Their genetic characteristics changing would have an impact on there appearances. Understand? |
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| G.J.V. | Jul 30 2008, 11:05:15 PM Post #11 |
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DC For Life
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I see. I misunderstood what you meant be "like Xmen". I thought you meant that the mutations are in big jumps, rather than millions of tiny jumps. As I said "Missing Link" = Monkeys & People, two seperate paths. The missing link would qualify as a primate, but not a monkey. I mean, the various breeds of monkey these days are unlikely to ever evolve into people, because they've gone in a different direction.
They do have more evidence. Note that I said they have more, not that they're the only ones with any.
Yes, of course I'm aware that it's a theory. I'm not 5 you know. The evolution from Darwin's theory hasn't ceased. Darwin never said that there was a set path for evolution. (Even if we ignore the "missing link" thing for a minute and just go with monkeys) There is no certainty that these monkeys will become human. They could very easily evolve into something completely new. Monkeys are always evolving. I'm very aware that the genetic differences are present in ALL animals. I'm saying that these differences are the roots of evolution. (Example) Let's just say you have a monkey who's slightly taller than all of his family. He grows up & has kids who are tall like him, one of these monkeys however also has a slightly extended jaw line. That monkey's kids are tall and have extended jaw lines, but one is also genetically bigger boned. That monkey's kids are taller, have extended jaw lines and are big boned, but one also has a small tail. That monkey's kids are taller, have extended jaw lines, are bigger boned and have small tails, but one is missing his smallest fingers. That monkey's kids are tall, have extended jaw lines, are bigger boned, have small tails and are missing their smallest fingers, but one of them also has white hair rather than dark brown. His kids are blah blah blah. I think you get the picture, until eventually there is a family that are so different from their origins that they can't be classified as the same species. Obviously there's unlikely to be a change at EVERY generation, but it was easier than writing "that monkey's great great great great grandson" every time. Anyway, we're a little offtopic. If you want to continue this debate, PM me (or set up a new thread for it). Otherwise I'll assume that you've accepted what I've said. Edited by G.J.V., Jul 30 2008, 11:27:41 PM.
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| Otacon_Hal | Jul 31 2008, 12:34:55 AM Post #12 |
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"May One Just Man Become An Army."
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It hasn't stopped at all! Read the newspapers! The physical makeup of the human being is changing, but due to modern lifestyle. Nature had to adapt us to 'her' at the start, now we are adapting her to us. The main points being what is in our food,drugs we take that have gotten into streams and lakes etc etc. It has been proven that girls now start menstruating younger then they ever have before,Peoples metabolism has changed completely and so has our immune system. ALL these changes to our natural makeup, mostly due to our own advancements and lifestyle. Hense why we need solutions for situations which never would have been thrown up naturally.
1) Well, then..I guess. You're sorted. 2) Well this started out well, but if you don't need an answer to your exhistance then non of all this will make sense then. 3) ....errr....why are you even reading this thread..? 4) They DO look good on him yes! they are also quite comfortable if you get one made of soft material. Another interesting point was that it was also Kojima's bending to Fans and fanart who always had him in a turtleneck (Probably due to 'Men who wear turtlenecks' folklaw/legend). as he never was in the game up to MGS4. Remember Kojima said he always likes to keep close to the fans and what their saying. But......I'm certain that THAT is STILL not the true meaning of it! THERE IS MORE!! And Kojima's on to something... Back to Science Vs Religion... Our universe is carefully designed to allow life and human development in a way which scientists are STILL looking to the stars to find simular situations. It has been proven that the universe started with a "Big Bang" being, the beginning of time and space. Science has shown no 'before' before the Bang, and science can find no cause or 'reason'. Darwin's Theory of Evolution 'needs' no god, but there is enormous controversy among Darwin scientists as to how evolution works. Many other scientists also raise critical objections to the Theory. Darwinism is not proven!! Religion-free evolution to some people seems like the perfect answer to something they can not see or quantify to any physical measurement, because you are into the relms of conjecture, dogma and beliefs. we can PROVE up to a certain point, exactly what route the Human being took on its road to where we are now, it is strange and almost 'convinient' that we can not find any trace of that 'Missing link' that is the holy grail of human evolution. ![]() However..CAN you have one without the other? If the true darwinists are to be believed then there was TOTAL natural evolution, nothing before the 'big bang', you have no 'Soul' and.....THIS is all there is. Now, lets mix some Religion in with the science debate! The only real way to 'Prove' there is a creator is possibly buy citing that which can not be explained by science (Like 1 second before the big bang), or marvaling the wonder of 'unexplained occurances' like miracles. You could claim there is not creator, because you can't see or speak to 'him' directly. The whole of Religion is QUITE LITTERALLY 'Faith'. It is the way we all understood and translated the fundamental basis of the religion as to way there are so many. Now, I personally believe in a soul....and let me tell you something here. When I was doing my seven year Phd, I learned one heck of alot about biology, what makes you tick, what keeps you running inside, things that happen to you EVERYDAY that are so common they happen without you even noticing it. From how many times you blink, to how many times you swallow, to the raise in serotonin that makes you feel happy and elated to the things that make you fear,love,anger and excite. I am certainly not a Anatomist, who theroectically speaking can take a human being apart and put them back together bit by bit...they know everything as if they had the 'haynes manual of the Human being'! We know just about everything there is to know about the human body (Except, certain aspects of the brain and the reason for some seemingly dormant tissues - like tonsils). Why can we not just bring someone back to life (In the true sense, not the therorectical Reanimational sense)? What is the secret ingredient to life? What IS that special thing that only your mother could give you? Could we call that value...the soul? Why can a anatomist not 'Just put you back together' or 'switch the broken part' or 'bring you back to life' after you died of heart failiar. This proves that there is a 'value' (I use that word for lack of a better one) that we scientists, or even a simple doctor as myself can not explain, quantify or weild. I don't even have enough years in my own limited lifespan to even scratch the surface of some of my questions or ponderances...and this bothers me!! Lol So, philosophy does interlink with religion, but they are not good bedfellows AND...they seem to keep stealing the covers from science AND kicking it out of bed during the night! *High cheekboned smile* Edited by Otacon_Hal, Aug 1 2008, 12:13:53 PM.
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| kisskissbangbang | Aug 2 2008, 07:40:01 PM Post #13 |
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Hum-pa-dump
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Uhh what? This is on topic since Otacon_Hal asked "What constitutes an indivdual" (Not sure if you know, but constitutes means make or create.) This also involves the evolution theory on how we were made and what we are today.
WEll genius, apparently I must state the obvious for you, unlike Evolution [which is supposed to be science] Genesis is a RELIGION which in its very nature isnt supposed to explain everything. They both dont, but one is supposed to be science, one religion that requires faith. But ,like i said,the truth is that BOTH dont prove anything and require just as much faith. But evolution pretends to be fact, and thats absurd when its currently unproveable The basis I have is pretty much historical facts, the christian religion has by far the most historical backing/evidence behind it out of all the religions. And I believe that there is a god because I dont think this can all happen by accident, plus how did the material in the big bang come to be. So I believe there has to be a supreme being. And if you objectively look at all the religions, christianity has the most evidence/proof and makes the most logical sense.
Ok like ive already said, i believe in evolution. We can prove that with peoples changing heights on average etc. I dont believe in DARWINS theory of evolution I remember that critics of Darwins theory wrote, "If the theory of natural selection of Darwin is correct, why can't we see the intermediate forms of species, the connecting links?" Darwin did not have the answer or the archeological evidence to back it up. There is good evidence for many species,but fossil records dont provide the key evidence required for the intertwinning connecting links. And typical scientists said something like " Oh we're modifying Darwins' findings, but thats ok, we're right this time." They then came up with their Punctuated Equilibrium evolutionary theory(google it if you dont understand), which apparently makes evolution invisible in the fossil record (Cute logic). So theres two main theories and ideas that are vastly supported on each side. First is the historical default - the Creation Model of Origins. This theory has always maintained that the intricate design permeating all things implies a Designer, in this case God for example. The second theory is the modern and ALWAYS subject to change shockingly, atheistic explanation - the Evolution Model of Origins. This theory postulates that the intricate design permeating all things is a product of random chance and long periods of time. Darwins falls under this category. Understand? Yet both sides have theories, which neither can be proved yet or is one "fact" or whatever.
Heres a medal for missing the obvious. Of course we have evolved. Its been backed up with things like average height changes, like i've said numerous times before! Cute how you couldnt pick up on that. Which iis why i believe in evolution! Not Darwins theory of evolution. Mkay? |
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