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Evil big boss, please
Topic Started: Sep 29 2009, 01:53:23 AM (5,638 Views)
Helikaon
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No, but the story of MG2 is set in the same way as all the other stories. It's where Kojima learned his trade and introduced us to the main hero and villain in the series, regardless of whether Kojima planned it or not (he didn't, he's said many times that he's like Indiana Jones and just makes it up as he goes along) MG2 is an important and significant game in the series. MG1's story is simple, so is MG2's when taken at face value but the truth is it's one of the most intricate in the series.
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JohnKiller118
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Oh sure. I mean MG2 is only MGS1 with Big Boss instead of Liquid, it's only the reason Solid Snake acts the way he does, why Liquid is motivated and Grey Fox actually has a character in that game. MG1 is only the first stealth orientated action game ever.

Not important at all.

Sorry to bring back this old topic, but I just wanted to point out how awesome that post was, Helikaon.

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Maan Heli those games are so ooold, no one cares what happened in them.
(ps. did you hear that kojima maybe wants someone to remake metal gear?? metal gear on ps3 would be awsum!)

...and I wanted to point out how much of a dumbass TOKUGAWA HEAVY INDUSTRIES is. :glare:

Anyway, I'll post my opinion about this later.
I'm sorry for being a cunt.
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JohnKiller118
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Helikaon
Sep 30 2009, 05:49:34 PM
Two words for anyone claiming Big Boss wont either be: Insane or just a complete asshole: Metal Gear.

Big Boss was willing (far more willing than any other person after him [except maybe Liquid], he wasn't doing it to free anyone, he was doing it solely for his own goals) to kill possibly billions of people using Metal Gear. He tried to do it twice. If they retcon that out of existence by just saying "He wanted to kill Zero" then the entire point of Solid Snake's mission is undermined in MG/MG2, if Big Boss was never going to use them (which he was, it's only because Snake got in his way that he didn't) then both he and Snake's characters are undermined.

If Big Boss wanted to kill Zero then he had far more efficient and better methods than a walking battle-tank. Thus Big Boss had completely snapped by MG/MG2 resulting in him forgetting that he was a tactical genius.
Let's also keep in mind that killing Zero wasn't his only goal. His goal was also to fulfill his corrupt interpretation of the Boss' will. In his mind, and thanks to his SENSEs, he believed that the Boss wanted never ending war, so soldiers will always have a place in the world.
Even with the so called "rectons" in MGS4, I still believe that Big Boss in MG1 and 2 is evil... he just doesn't realize it...
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I fully expect Big Boss or Ocelot acting on Big Boss' orders killing Paz at the end of the game, someone so dedicated to 'peace' is going to be a big thorn in his side and I'm thinking he will want her eliminated.

That would be great for Big Boss' character development!

Quote:
 
But I personally don't consider that an evil act, he's a soldier, killing is what soldiers do. Immoral? Certainly, but not an evil act.

Wait... how the hell is killing a child not an evil act?
Being a soldier doesn't make killing children any better.
Edited by JohnKiller118, Mar 11 2010, 02:49:26 AM.
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Shalaco
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Big Boss must, MUST, be through a lot in this game, through many more than in MGS3 and PO, to make him that hard inside. We know he's cold in MG1, we know he's, as my beloved heli said, a complete asshole or totally insane. He even manipulated his own crew, he manipulated both Fox and Snake, and even sent Snake in knowing that Snake was his clone and having the intention of him getting killed by either his mercenaries or himself. And worse of all, killing innocent people to achieve his goal. Something BIG has got to happen here.
I just hope he doesn't get injected by crazy nanomachines and make him go like NUKES ARE GOOD :OH:
Edited by Shalaco, Mar 11 2010, 03:13:21 AM.
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JohnKiller118
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-Shalashaska-
Mar 11 2010, 03:13:09 AM
I just hope he doesn't get injected by crazy nanomachines and make him go like NUKES ARE GOOD :OH:
I just had the best mental image ever.
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Shalaco
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describe please
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Helikaon
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JohnKiller118
Mar 11 2010, 02:47:29 AM
Helikaon
Sep 30 2009, 05:49:34 PM
Two words for anyone claiming Big Boss wont either be: Insane or just a complete asshole: Metal Gear.

Big Boss was willing (far more willing than any other person after him [except maybe Liquid], he wasn't doing it to free anyone, he was doing it solely for his own goals) to kill possibly billions of people using Metal Gear. He tried to do it twice. If they retcon that out of existence by just saying "He wanted to kill Zero" then the entire point of Solid Snake's mission is undermined in MG/MG2, if Big Boss was never going to use them (which he was, it's only because Snake got in his way that he didn't) then both he and Snake's characters are undermined.

If Big Boss wanted to kill Zero then he had far more efficient and better methods than a walking battle-tank. Thus Big Boss had completely snapped by MG/MG2 resulting in him forgetting that he was a tactical genius.
Let's also keep in mind that killing Zero wasn't his only goal. His goal was also to fulfill his corrupt interpretation of the Boss' will. In his mind, and thanks to his SENSEs, he believed that the Boss wanted never ending war, so soldiers will always have a place in the world.
Even with the so called "rectons" in MGS4, I still believe that Big Boss in MG1 and 2 is evil... he just doesn't realize it...
Spoiler: click to toggle


Quote:
 
I fully expect Big Boss or Ocelot acting on Big Boss' orders killing Paz at the end of the game, someone so dedicated to 'peace' is going to be a big thorn in his side and I'm thinking he will want her eliminated.

That would be great for Big Boss' character development!

Quote:
 
But I personally don't consider that an evil act, he's a soldier, killing is what soldiers do. Immoral? Certainly, but not an evil act.

Wait... how the hell is killing a child not an evil act?
Being a soldier doesn't make killing children any better.
Paz isn't a child. Extreme? Yes. But from Big Boss' perspective it's not evil.

From my own, of course it's evil. Killing a human being is an abhorrent act, one of the worst things one can do. But for a soldier, particularly one like John Doe, it wouldn't be evil, it's what he does.
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The_GhosT
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JohnKiller118
Mar 11 2010, 02:47:29 AM
Let's also keep in mind that killing Zero wasn't his only goal. His goal was also to fulfill his corrupt interpretation of the Boss' will. In his mind, and thanks to his SENSEs, he believed that the Boss wanted never ending war, so soldiers will always have a place in the world.
Even with the so called "rectons" in MGS4, I still believe that Big Boss in MG1 and 2 is evil... he just doesn't realize it...
Spoiler: click to toggle
I think you pretty much touched on the story there, to be honest. This is where we will see him as "evil". By the end of MGS4, BB was fully aware of the terrible things he had done, and he confesses to the folly of his rivalry with Zero, AND his misunderstanding and wrongful interpretation of The Boss' will, as you said, John. The "never-ending war" you mentioned is the misinterpretation of all of this. Big Boss' selfishness is ultimately the reason for his downfall and :elaugh2:-ness. He lost everything inside himself after he killed The Boss, and he longed for somewhere where he could deny his guilt and rid himself of his demons for his wrong-doings. I think the way the series has built his character has been superb, not down to retcons. He went from admiring The Boss, her being a part of him, to losing her, to losing what he believed in, and the corruption of what was induced proceeding this. This was masterful story-telling, in my opinion, and whether Hideo was aware of it or not, the character of Big Boss and his growth into who he was and is, was wonderful. And this is where the "evil" acts HAVE to come into play, because he HAD to have committed these crimes in order to become what he was and fulfill the prophecy that was already laid out for him. Heli is right, there's only one way this can go, he needs to turn into an arse. I just think that what John stated here hits the nail on the head entirely. Outer Heaven, in the most brief sense, was an expression and excuse for his own guilt and the anguish he felt. Others flocked to his cause based on his good points, his charisma and his reputation/importance in the world of war. He therefore created more conflict in order to involve himself in the only thing he thought he fit into: the only world The Boss ever knew.



Edit: Heli, I'm with you, mate, I want Paz dead. I'm not gonna lie, there's already enough of the PW cast I'm not a fan of... Just wanna see what happens with it's star.
Edited by The_GhosT, Mar 12 2010, 12:27:43 AM.
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JohnKiller118
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The_GhosT
Mar 12 2010, 12:26:38 AM
I think you pretty much touched on the story there, to be honest. This is where we will see him as "evil". By the end of MGS4, BB was fully aware of the terrible things he had done, and he confesses to the folly of his rivalry with Zero, AND his misunderstanding and wrongful interpretation of The Boss' will, as you said, John. The "never-ending war" you mentioned is the misinterpretation of all of this. Big Boss' selfishness is ultimately the reason for his downfall and :elaugh2:-ness. He lost everything inside himself after he killed The Boss, and he longed for somewhere where he could deny his guilt and rid himself of his demons for his wrong-doings. I think the way the series has built his character has been superb, not down to retcons. He went from admiring The Boss, her being a part of him, to losing her, to losing what he believed in, and the corruption of what was induced proceeding this. This was masterful story-telling, in my opinion, and whether Hideo was aware of it or not, the character of Big Boss and his growth into who he was and is, was wonderful. And this is where the "evil" acts HAVE to come into play, because he HAD to have committed these crimes in order to become what he was and fulfill the prophecy that was already laid out for him. Heli is right, there's only one way this can go, he needs to turn into an arse. I just think that what John stated here hits the nail on the head entirely. Outer Heaven, in the most brief sense, was an expression and excuse for his own guilt and the anguish he felt. Others flocked to his cause based on his good points, his charisma and his reputation/importance in the world of war. He therefore created more conflict in order to involve himself in the only thing he thought he fit into: the only world The Boss ever knew.
That... was beautiful.
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You see, that's why I'm excited for Peace Walker and not Rising. It's all about the story for me. You may be fine with the games so long as they're fun to play, but the story is half the experience for me. So the time when stories starts to suck (and despite me loving MGS4, both gameplay wise and story wise, to death, I can defiantly see why people don't like it) is the time I stop caring about new Metal Gear games. Peace Walker just might be the last great Metal Gear game to me!

...I still have no idea what everyone has against Paz. She's a young girl who loves peace. Sure, that might get annoying, but it fits the game's "peace by nuclear deterrence" theme (I'm still waiting for the theme named in a similar manner to "GENE", "MEME", "SENSE", "SCENE" theme for PW, but "deterrence" will do for now.) Plus, it's not like she'll be nagging you about what day it is tomorrow. ;)
Edited by JohnKiller118, Mar 12 2010, 03:21:40 AM.
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Shalaco
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I think I just now that we realize how Big Boss is, and that even after all the terrible things he did he was still a legend, realize myself and fully understand what Snake said: There's not much difference between legends and mad men.
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Tom Cruise
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im sure big boss being evil will be changed to "he was misunderstood in MG1 and 2/he let snake win for some stupid reason/etc etc" i just dont see big boss going full on cackling evil.
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The_GhosT
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Well, you'd be silly to think that, he's far from the cackling type, and I mean that seriously, because his character is really important here. He WILL however, be a complete bastard, whether you like it or not. Not EVIL (this is too narrow-minded a term to use, as people have different perceptions of it [and I'm saying that briefly because I can't be assed for a big debate over who deems what evil or not]), but one things for sure... he STILL ended up doing the terrible things he did, and that HAS to be acknowledged and appreciated for his character development (and most importantly for it to make sense plot-wise). It's more than just classifying it as "evil" or "cackling", noones saying he's gonna be full-on "evil", but he's gonna be "an arse", as I put it earlier. I see where you're coming from though, I also don't want it to be based SOLELY around how "misunderstood he is", but rather, what it was that made him turn into a cunt. Because at the end of the day, we don't need to be reminded throughout PW that he's a good guy inside still, THAT WAS ESTABLISHED IN MGS3, and we don't need to be reminded that he knows why he's doing cuntish-things, THAT WAS ESTABLISHED LATER IN MGS4 IN HIS WHOLE REDEMPTION SCENE, so I just wanna see what made him turn into MG1/ 2 Big Boss. The one who threatened the world with nuclear war and tried to kill his son, twice. PLEASE.
Edited by The_GhosT, Mar 15 2010, 04:41:37 AM.
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I dont use cake for fatties. I find it easier to use Bacon draped over my rancid sore ridden pork dagger.


"Ya cyan't see dah eye ah' dah deman... 'til he coom cahlin'..."
“Bunch of slack-jawed faggots around here! This stuff will make you a goddamn sexual Tyrannosaurus, just like me!”
"Can I sleep in your room? I don't want to sleep on the hide-a bed with Fuller. If he has something to drink, he'll wet the bed." "I wouldn't let you sleep in my room... IF YOU WERE GROWING ON MY ASS."
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Helikaon
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Exactly.

Do I expect Big Boss to be laughing maniacally while twirling his mustache, throwing newborn kittens into ovens and talking to himself? No. Not at all, he's snapped emotionally, he's not crazy.

Do I expect him to not even give a thought to killing innocent people? Hell yes, because that's what would have happened in his interpretation of the Boss' will: innocent people are either corrupted into becoming killers or they die.
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JohnKiller118
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Helikaon
Mar 14 2010, 03:06:13 AM
Do I expect Big Boss to be laughing maniacally while twirling his mustache, throwing newborn kittens into ovens and talking to himself?
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This came to mind, bscly.
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hedm2005
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Absolutely. Unlike most people, I really do not have a problem with Big Boss as a protagonist in MGS3. If anything, it set Kojima up for a masterstroke, if he can pull it off. We will finally get to see what could turn a man who saved the world into a man willing to end it just for revenge against a man who was once a friend. This COULD be a brilliant game. I'm not going to hold my breath, though.
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this has to be really long and show alot of character development, because all weve seen from big boss/naked snake is a really hesitant almost unsure of himself soldier. to see him turn into a bastard straight up, we havent seen even an inkling of that. theres been no foreshadowing of BB having a dark side, which is why i think it will be changed to him being misunderstood instead of full on bastard
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Helikaon
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It can't be changed, unless Kojima wants to contradict MGS4.
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JohnKiller118
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hedm2005
Mar 14 2010, 09:38:36 AM
Absolutely. Unlike most people, I really do not have a problem with Big Boss as a protagonist in MGS3. If anything, it set Kojima up for a masterstroke, if he can pull it off. We will finally get to see what could turn a man who saved the world into a man willing to end it just for revenge against a man who was once a friend. This COULD be a brilliant game. I'm not going to hold my breath, though.
I, however, will hold my breath until I turn blue. I really want to see Big Boss loose it.
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The_GhosT
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NickRocks
Mar 14 2010, 09:55:46 AM
this has to be really long and show alot of character development, because all weve seen from big boss/naked snake is a really hesitant almost unsure of himself soldier. to see him turn into a bastard straight up, we havent seen even an inkling of that. theres been no foreshadowing of BB having a dark side, which is why i think it will be changed to him being misunderstood instead of full on bastard
It doesn't HAVE to be mega-long, because that's where MG1 and 2, MGS3 and MGS4 have filled in the gaps before and after. We know what brought him there (ultimately, loss of self over The Boss' demise) and what he turned into (MG1 and 2) and what he ended up like (MGS4), so the only thing we need to see is that one moment where all of this comes together. I can't wait, personally, because this moment, for many long-time fans of MG, is the Darth Vader-origins-type revelation equivalent. The "unsure-of-himself" attitude IS a foreshadowing of future events, though. While I agree he hasn't been completely painted as a soon-to-be-bastard in MGS3, he doesn't need to be, because what classic villains are ever "born evil". There's always something that switches them over, and this is going to be ever-apparent with PW. Anakin Skywalker was the nicest of lads with the nicest of intentions, ambitions and aims for the world and it's people... who later turned into a slaughterer of entire races and species in some cases, compassion well and truly devoid, so think about this. But as I say, we're not sure until it is released, but I get where you're coming from completely. It would not surprise me if Hideo takes this route, but I'm genuinely expecting and hoping that he doesn't, just to hold on to some shred of dignity.
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PUT YOUR FUCKING COCK IN-BETWEEN MY ARMPIT NOW SO I CAN MAKE A FART NOISE ON YOUR BELL-END.


Mickey
 
I dont use cake for fatties. I find it easier to use Bacon draped over my rancid sore ridden pork dagger.


"Ya cyan't see dah eye ah' dah deman... 'til he coom cahlin'..."
“Bunch of slack-jawed faggots around here! This stuff will make you a goddamn sexual Tyrannosaurus, just like me!”
"Can I sleep in your room? I don't want to sleep on the hide-a bed with Fuller. If he has something to drink, he'll wet the bed." "I wouldn't let you sleep in my room... IF YOU WERE GROWING ON MY ASS."
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Helikaon
Sep 29 2009, 02:02:56 AM
I doubt it. I think the surprise is going to be the definitive reason that he becomes what he becomes, but we wont see an evil Big Boss until we get a remake of MG/2, or another game set during that period but without Big Boss as the player character. But I do think we're going to see him do some pretty questionable and immoral things, or influencing others to do them for him. For example I fully expect Big Boss or Ocelot acting on Big Boss' orders killing Paz at the end of the game, someone so dedicated to 'peace' is going to be a big thorn in his side and I'm thinking he will want her eliminated. But I personally don't consider that an evil act, he's a soldier, killing is what soldiers do. Immoral? Certainly, but not an evil act.

Plus I've already got it in for Paz, she's already annoying me on a Little John/Sunny scale and I haven't even heard her English voice actress yet. She's just too full on with the peace bollocks.
I think that Kojima will make MG remakes for psp after PL.
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