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| Evil big boss, please | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Sep 29 2009, 01:53:23 AM (5,636 Views) | |
| hukibeast | Apr 6 2010, 09:41:39 PM Post #61 |
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Kojima's going to make Big Boss a good guy in this game. He's not daring enough to do something like him killing Paz and turning evil. He'll be portrayed as a tragic, misunderstood good guy, something that Hideo Kojima has been building up to for the last 3 games. |
| Language isn't your first language is it? -Metal_girl_Solid | |
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| JohnKiller118 | Apr 6 2010, 09:59:16 PM Post #62 |
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The man in a pickle suit.
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How had he been building up to him being a misunderstood good guy? Tragic? Maybe. Good guy? HELL NO! Hell, that's why the ending of MGS4 was his "redemption." Not his "oh, I may of messed up in a few areas but overall I'm still good, lol! !"And to prove my point, Ravi once again, speaks the truth. Edited by JohnKiller118, Apr 6 2010, 10:24:10 PM.
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| The_GhosT | Apr 6 2010, 11:22:13 PM Post #63 |
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Yeah, I don't think "good guy's" the right word, but there could be possibility in what hukibeast speaks of, sadly. I don't want it, but it's entirely possible that Kojima may venture down this route instead due to his fascination with BB. It will be a shame, that's all I'm saying. I'm definately not going to debate on what WILL happen, we all don't have a clue about that. But I truly hope he does crack and does something irrefutably maniacal or against his character. Otherwise we have an entire series based around the misunderstanding of one person's will and Solid Snake's (essentially who we would consider the "Saintiest" of them all [speech marks were for exaggeration]) whole crusade to rid the world of these various "misunderstandings" would have been in vain (I'm speaking of MG1 and 2, really). It would just retcon everything the series would be built upon. I think the "misunderstood" thing about Big Boss can still be done in this game, but they really need to let it be shown how fucked up he turned following the events of PW. I mean, I don't need to state the things he did, we all should know (like trying to kill your son, twice, and threatening the world with nuclear war, etc.), but this really needs to be emphasised. You don't make those kind of decisions based on it being a "misunderstanding". BB: "Oh, Snake, I know I've turned against you and now I'm actually leading Outer Heaven, but fear not, I'm actually doing this because, really, I love you and don't want to kill you, I've just had a rough time dealing with The Boss' death and I'm taking it out on everyone else in my denial with this nuclear warhead and Metal Gear machine I funded the creation of. Please love me." Snake: "Riiiiiiiiight." This is how I don't want it to retcon itself. |
![]() PUT YOUR FUCKING COCK IN-BETWEEN MY ARMPIT NOW SO I CAN MAKE A FART NOISE ON YOUR BELL-END.
"Ya cyan't see dah eye ah' dah deman... 'til he coom cahlin'..." “Bunch of slack-jawed faggots around here! This stuff will make you a goddamn sexual Tyrannosaurus, just like me!” "Can I sleep in your room? I don't want to sleep on the hide-a bed with Fuller. If he has something to drink, he'll wet the bed." "I wouldn't let you sleep in my room... IF YOU WERE GROWING ON MY ASS." Spoiler: click to toggle
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| Weedle_McHairybug | Apr 6 2010, 11:24:08 PM Post #64 |
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Hi-Tech Soldier
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Big Boss might be a jerk after this game, but to call him sadistic would be taking it a bit too far. Sadism is basically the enjoyment of causing suffering to people. As Big Boss mentioned that he had regrets about what he did, I doubt he would be a sadist (true sadists would never regret causing pain and suffering, as it is their life's joy. Volgin and Dr. Weil never had any regrets towards causing causing harm to people.). Whatever the case, the E3 trailer kinda suggests they're going the hero route (they mentioned the rise of a hero, which usually implies in game speak that the character's a good guy.). |
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| JohnKiller118 | Apr 6 2010, 11:47:28 PM Post #65 |
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The man in a pickle suit.
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Win You know, I actually didn't mind most of MGS4's "rectons." Why? Because they all at least kept the characters intact. Ocelot may of done everything he did in MGS1 and 2 for the sake of his bromance with Big Boss... but it didn't recton Ocelot's character from being the brilliant asshole we know and love to being "good." But if Big Boss gets retconed as being a good guy in Peace Walker, that would COMPLETELY change his character from Metal Gear 2! I don't know how Big Boss' character from Metal Gear 2 could ever be misunderstood. His epic speech was pretty straight forward. "WAR! WAR! SEX < WAR! WAR!" Oh yeah, sounds like a real tenderheart. How could we ever think of him as evil? But then, look what they did to Gray Fox! His backstory was firmly established in Metal Gear 2... and MPO completely ruined that. I've been trying to convince myself that since Kojima had little involvement with MPO, that may not of been his idea. But what if it was?! If he could do that with Gray Fox, who's to say that he won't to the same to Big Boss?! At least Portable Ops was a piece of shit that could be easily discarded since nothing major in the game's plot was referenced in MGS4 (unless Peace Walker fucks it all up and has MPO's story play a massive part in the game's story.) But Peace Walker actually looks like the best Metal Gear game in years! I don't want to think of that as non-canon! Edited by JohnKiller118, Apr 6 2010, 11:49:30 PM.
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| The_GhosT | Apr 6 2010, 11:52:16 PM Post #66 |
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Yeah, me also. And that is all I fear. Kojima bbeing in the front seat here should arrive us with some good explanations but if he pussies out, I'm gonna be pissed, along with many other people. It'd set me up nicely for that remake Kojima told me he's gonna make just for me on PS3, as well (I'm not deluded, just wishful). |
![]() PUT YOUR FUCKING COCK IN-BETWEEN MY ARMPIT NOW SO I CAN MAKE A FART NOISE ON YOUR BELL-END.
"Ya cyan't see dah eye ah' dah deman... 'til he coom cahlin'..." “Bunch of slack-jawed faggots around here! This stuff will make you a goddamn sexual Tyrannosaurus, just like me!” "Can I sleep in your room? I don't want to sleep on the hide-a bed with Fuller. If he has something to drink, he'll wet the bed." "I wouldn't let you sleep in my room... IF YOU WERE GROWING ON MY ASS." Spoiler: click to toggle
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| JohnKiller118 | Apr 7 2010, 12:03:03 AM Post #67 |
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The man in a pickle suit.
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So? They call allot of people in the series "heroes." Plus, they're probably doing it for the big twist when Big Boss goes mad (well, it defiantly will be a twist for those that think Big Boss is a hero, or for old fans that were in doubt that Kojima's still "got it.") |
| I'm sorry for being a cunt. | |
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| Weedle_McHairybug | Apr 7 2010, 12:07:32 AM Post #68 |
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Hi-Tech Soldier
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Well, let's see how things go. Also, the guy who did the article on Snake Soup most likely doesn't know what a "retcon" is or how history actually went. First off, Gray Fox being in the Mozambician War of Independence is NOT a retcon, as that conflict took place long before the Mozambician Civil War even started (not to mention that the Mozambician Civil War and the Mozambician War of Independence were two entirely different conflicts.). In order for it to truly be a retcon, it needs to be within the Mozambician Civil War, and have him serving Fremilo instead or Renamo. Heck, his serving at Fremilo actually gave a reason why he ended up fighting with Renamo, as it implies that he joined Renamo so he could get revenge on the people who made him into a killer in the first place. Honestly, why are people thinking that Gray Fox's backstory is automatically retconned just because he fought in the Mozambician War of Independence under Frelimo. It's also not like he had to be a native to Mozambique to participate (Big Boss participated, and he wasn't even a native.), not to mention that he was more than likely sent off from Vietnam to Mozambique to participate in the war (we already know that, after being orphaned by his parents, he was placed into a work camp and treated harsher than the others because of his Caucasian heritage. It's also not uncommon for POWs to often be forcibly placed in a war that a theoretical ally is participating in. The OST division of Nazi Germany was a very notable example of this practice, which is mainly composed of Czech POWs [which was even referenced in "Saving Private Ryan" during the Normandy scene].). We also know that Frank Jaegar knew how to speak at least some German (in fact, that was the source of his name.), and I doubt he would know some german unless one of his parents taught him (one of his parents was German American, and I'm guessing it is his dad). |
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| JohnKiller118 | Apr 7 2010, 12:26:48 AM Post #69 |
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The man in a pickle suit.
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Because, in Metal Gear 2, Gray Fox doesn't mention any of this. He said Big Boss saved him twice. In Metal Gear 2, the first time was in Vietnam when they were executing half-whites. The second time was in Mozambique, when he was being tortured. In MPO. the first time would possibly be in Mozambique (ie, not Vietnam.) The second (or possibly first) time would be in the San Hieronymo Peninsula (as Portable Ops has shown.) Neither events in Portable Ops were mentioned in Metal Gear 2. You could say that Big Boss saved Gray Fox again in Mozambique while being tortured (thus making the second time he was saved possibly canon), but that doesn't change the fact that the first time Big Boss saved Gray Fox was in in the San Hieronymo Peninsula from being experimented on for the "Perfect Solider" project, and not from ethnic cleansing in Vietnam. Thus, RETCON! Edit: Yeah, I know I keep misspelling "retcon", but that's not the point. Edited by JohnKiller118, Apr 7 2010, 12:30:39 AM.
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| Weedle_McHairybug | Apr 7 2010, 12:34:56 AM Post #70 |
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Hi-Tech Soldier
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Yeah, and Metal Gear 2 didn't mention that Big Boss told Snake that he was his father during the duel, should you hate Metal Gear Solid for that, as well? A retcon implies complete erasure from continuity, so we cannot say that his being in Vietnam is a retcon, even IF the Database neglected to mention it. Even IF Big Boss didn't save Frank Jaegar from the work camps in Vietnam, that still doesn't mean that Gray Fox wasn't born in Vietnam. Need I really remind you that the Database already has enough holes as it is? The database also claimed that Solidus Snake had erased Raiden's memories in regards to his role in the Liberian Civil War, even though Metal Gear Solid 2 already explicitly stated that it was actually the Patriots who did this, or at least Raiden himself who did it, or both. Whatever the case, Solidus made it quite clear that he had absolutely nothing to do with Raiden's memory loss, and was even saddened that he forgot everything and saying "what did they do to you?" |
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| The_GhosT | Apr 7 2010, 12:35:01 AM Post #71 |
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If you read the article properly, he states at the very beginning exactly what a "retcon" is: "A retcon is a change of previously established facts in a work of fiction. Gray Fox's backstory has been established in 1990 with Metal Gear 2: Solid Snake...", so that kinda shows you didn't read it properly if you didn't even get through the first paragraph. Also, noone is arguing that him being born in Vietnam is a retcon. What is retconned is the instances that Big boss apparently met Gray Fox. You're right in that if it isn't mentioned, it doesn't mean it's been retconned, but you need to read the article properly; Gray Fox doesn't mention at all his involvement with Big Boss as PO would have had you believe, in MG2. If he's able to remember Vietnam, I'm sure he'd remember that. Edited by The_GhosT, Apr 7 2010, 12:46:32 AM.
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![]() PUT YOUR FUCKING COCK IN-BETWEEN MY ARMPIT NOW SO I CAN MAKE A FART NOISE ON YOUR BELL-END.
"Ya cyan't see dah eye ah' dah deman... 'til he coom cahlin'..." “Bunch of slack-jawed faggots around here! This stuff will make you a goddamn sexual Tyrannosaurus, just like me!” "Can I sleep in your room? I don't want to sleep on the hide-a bed with Fuller. If he has something to drink, he'll wet the bed." "I wouldn't let you sleep in my room... IF YOU WERE GROWING ON MY ASS." Spoiler: click to toggle
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| Weedle_McHairybug | Apr 7 2010, 12:42:40 AM Post #72 |
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Hi-Tech Soldier
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Actually, he's wrong about that. A retcon, also known as "retroactive continuity", is where completely established facts are erased from existance and replaced with something else. "Change" is far too much of a general term, as change also means facts that are added on without erasing previous facts. If you want an example of a "retcon," try going towards "Training Daze" in Pokemon Chronicles, where they completely erased previously established aspects of Jessie, James, and Meowth and completely rewriting most of their backstory. Bicycle gang? Went to Pokemon Tech together? Meowth once being the top cat? Never Happened! Heck, Jessie and James's reaction to each other when seeing that they are partners implied that they never met each other prior to their training. You see, this is what a retcon truly is. Adding onto the story without erasing anything is not a retcon. |
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| JohnKiller118 | Apr 7 2010, 12:48:44 AM Post #73 |
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The man in a pickle suit.
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1.) http://www.thesnakesoup.org/?section=myths&content=daddyboss He could of told Snake before Outer Heaven Also, Metal Gear Solid 1 rules. MPO is a piece of shit. Big difference. NEXT! 2.) ffs, IT'S NOT JUST THE DATABASE! IT'S IN THE FUCKING GAME! According to Metal Gear 2, Gray Fox was saved TWICE! And mentioned SPECIFICALLY that it was in Vietnam, and THEN in Mozambique. In MPO, it was in San Hieronymo Peninsula, THEN (possibly) Mozambique! Now don't you think Big Boss saving Gray Fox from people doing horrendous experiments on him to create the ultimate war machine, be worth mentioning to his friend (who beat the living crap out of him with his bare hands), with (what he thought) was his dieing breathe? RET-fucking-CON! Also, it wasn't just Gray Fox that I hated about MPO. It was making Volgin's nuke just him following orders from the CIA (wat?) and bringing back Sokolov. Add that with shitty gameplay, and there you have it; my complete hatred for Portable Ops! Edited by JohnKiller118, Apr 7 2010, 12:56:54 AM.
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| The_GhosT | Apr 7 2010, 12:58:25 AM Post #74 |
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I don't see how "change" can be too general a term to use to describe what happened with Gray Fox's back-story. Yes, it may mean no alteration to "previously established facts", but in the context of what this guy is talking about, it's patently clear that he's referring to an alteration on facts to suit PO's need for having "Null" included into the game. It doesn't match-up in regards to the timeline, and PO, as well as the database (as much as we hate them- sadly they are canon [ergo: they are the most recent documented "facts" given to us, therefore, everything therein should be considered as canon over what was previously delivered to us]) would have us believe that Gray Fox never met Big Boss in Vietnam, as previously stated. Like it or not, it's a retcon. Even if it isn't definitively stated by Kojima yet (and unless he finds a way to bypass this), we have enough evidence (the fact that Kojima never intended for the franchise to become as "deepened" as it has done, and he's openly admitted to making some of it up as he goes along) to assume they either forgot about these "previously established facts", or they purposely wanted to re-essemble something that fits with their new ideas and plotlines. Edited by The_GhosT, Apr 7 2010, 12:59:56 AM.
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![]() PUT YOUR FUCKING COCK IN-BETWEEN MY ARMPIT NOW SO I CAN MAKE A FART NOISE ON YOUR BELL-END.
"Ya cyan't see dah eye ah' dah deman... 'til he coom cahlin'..." “Bunch of slack-jawed faggots around here! This stuff will make you a goddamn sexual Tyrannosaurus, just like me!” "Can I sleep in your room? I don't want to sleep on the hide-a bed with Fuller. If he has something to drink, he'll wet the bed." "I wouldn't let you sleep in my room... IF YOU WERE GROWING ON MY ASS." Spoiler: click to toggle
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| Weedle_McHairybug | Apr 7 2010, 12:59:55 AM Post #75 |
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Hi-Tech Soldier
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I see no difference. If I hated something like that, I'd apply it to ALL things, not just one game and keep the other game innocent. In other words, if I had hated the fact that Gray Fox's backstory was erased and replaced, as yo make it out to be, then I'd also hate the fact that Big Boss was made into Solid Snake's father in Metal Gear Solid, and apparently told him during Zanzibar Land.
Doesn't mean they can't add it in in a potential remake. Yes, he said that he saved him twice, but if they do a remake, you can bet they'll change it to three or four times, as well. As I said, the only way it would truly be a retcon is if Big Boss encountered Gray Fox in Mozambique during the Civil War, and he was in Frelimo, as that is a true retcon, as it erases previously established continuity.
Because at the time Metal Gear 2: Solid Snake was released, they hadn't gotten the entire storyline down.
You know, it is possible that he was manipulated without his knowledge, similar to Solidus Snake thinking he was going against the Patriots
Yeah, and they brought back Kyle Schneider from the dead in Metal Gear 2: Solid Snake, and they brought back Gray Fox from the dead in Metal Gear Solid. If I were you and I hated what they did to Sokolov and hated Portable Ops as a result, I'd also hate Metal Gear 2: Solid Snake and Metal Gear Solid, because as far as I'm concerned, if it is bad in one game, it is bad in ALL games, no exceptions.
Big Boss was in Vietnam with Python for a mission in 1960. Even IF they never actually met, it's not like they can't have encountered each other at some point without exchanging information. And I honestly can't see why Metal Gear Solid 4 Database is canon, anyhow, as a few times, it contradicts itself. Like Liquid Ocelot, at least one article implies that Liquid Ocelot was indeed possessed by Liquid at some point, yet in others, it said he faked it ever since the Tanker Incident. Something that's truly canon doesn't contradict itself.
It was also stated at one point that they also had a timeline that is secure so that they don't make any mistakes with the timeline. Edited by Weedle_McHairybug, Apr 7 2010, 01:06:33 AM.
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| freddiegibbs | Apr 7 2010, 01:03:05 AM Post #76 |
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John Killer - calm down. At the end of the day, you come to expect this as Metal Gear is a vast, vast story that has never been planned from start to finish. Remakes of Metal Gear 1 & 2 are needed; they're from a different era of video games and I expected slight incontiniuty from them throughout the series. Edited by freddiegibbs, Apr 7 2010, 01:06:24 AM.
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| JohnKiller118 | Apr 7 2010, 01:08:43 AM Post #77 |
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The man in a pickle suit.
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It has less to do with me not wanting things from Metal Gear 2 to change and more to do with that I don't want things from Metal Gear 2 to change in exchange for shit. Gray Fox's backstory in Metal Gear 2, and Big Boss' "WAR, WAR" personality are much better than MPO's backstory and Big Boss' possible "o imma just misunderstood." Edited by JohnKiller118, Apr 7 2010, 01:12:50 AM.
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| The_GhosT | Apr 7 2010, 01:12:24 AM Post #78 |
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Granin, you're absolutely fucking right, mate. But Weedle_McHairybug is stating that these retcons don't exist, which would be a bit naive, given what you said about MG's vast story, and also, to add: To be fair, Weedle_McHairybug, you also moved the conversation very off-topic. This thread has nothing to do with Grey Fox's backstory, mate. Edited by The_GhosT, Apr 7 2010, 01:14:16 AM.
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![]() PUT YOUR FUCKING COCK IN-BETWEEN MY ARMPIT NOW SO I CAN MAKE A FART NOISE ON YOUR BELL-END.
"Ya cyan't see dah eye ah' dah deman... 'til he coom cahlin'..." “Bunch of slack-jawed faggots around here! This stuff will make you a goddamn sexual Tyrannosaurus, just like me!” "Can I sleep in your room? I don't want to sleep on the hide-a bed with Fuller. If he has something to drink, he'll wet the bed." "I wouldn't let you sleep in my room... IF YOU WERE GROWING ON MY ASS." Spoiler: click to toggle
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| Weedle_McHairybug | Apr 7 2010, 01:20:41 AM Post #79 |
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Hi-Tech Soldier
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To me, in order for there to be a difference, it needs to have absolutely no similarities. Meaning, Gray Fox didn't return, whileas Sokolov did. Big Boss didn't get retconned into Solid Snake's daddy, whileas Gray Fox's entire backstory was erased and replaced.
Even if they never said it was what happened, Campbell's quote still implied that it was indeed what happened.
No, no, you considered it to be a retcon (i.e. the complete removal of an established backstory and replacement thereof.). I considered it to be an add-on (i.e. adding onto the backstory without it actually removing anything in terms of backstory.). There's a big difference between the two. I agree that it involves change, but it's not the same thing.
See above.
Yeah, and Volgin also thought Snake was dead after The Boss threw him off the bridge, and obviously that wasn't the case. He even saw him fall.
Let's see, he built RAXA and the ICBMG, along with the latter's booster rocket. He also leaked the information about the ICBMG to Snake under the alias of Ghost, which proved essential to the plotline. I think that would be enough to state that he had a purpose in the story, or at least was involved more than simply saying "oh, hi, Snake!" and then leaving. Well, to get the thread back on topic, Big Boss is probably going to turn into a jerk, IF indeed he is going to become a villain (although the E3 trailer does imply otherwise.). I do, however, doubt that Big Boss kills Paz. I know at the ending of the trailer that Big Boss mentions to someone that "Revolution or no revolution, as soon as you pick up a gun, sooner or later you're going to hell. You prepared for that?" with the other person saying "I am. If the alternative is to give up the country I love, I'll take hell." To which Big Boss then says "Welcome... to Outer Heaven!" I'm guessing that woman is either Paz or Amanda. That's also assuming that, as you guys seem to think, Big Boss is indeed going to turn evil by killing Paz. Yes, Paz stated she has a hatred of war like no other, but she also wanted to get the armed forces out of her homeland Costa Rica. The line that this person stated also mentioned she'd rather take hell than give up on the country that [she] loved, which implies that she's joining Outer Heaven to save Costa Rica. This may be Paz or Amanda, however. Edited by Weedle_McHairybug, Apr 7 2010, 01:26:46 AM.
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| JohnKiller118 | Apr 7 2010, 01:25:14 AM Post #80 |
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The man in a pickle suit.
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Read the article. Again. CAREFULLY! Also, even if it was a recton, Metal Gear Solid has awesome gameplay and a great story, and Gray Fox coming back to life served a purpose in the story. Portable Ops has neither, and the game could of done without Null. There's a big difference between assuming someone died by falling off a bridge, and beating a guy up right in from of you. You're odds of determining if someone is dead is vastly increased in the later scenario than the former. They could of brought back Dr.Petrovic Madnar to do all of that. It didn't have to be Sokolov. Edited by JohnKiller118, Apr 7 2010, 01:26:07 AM.
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