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| Peace Walker Storyline General Discussion | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Oct 10 2009, 05:27:19 PM (4,912 Views) | |
| Big Boss. | Oct 19 2009, 09:56:51 PM Post #21 |
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but they can and you know they will. I mean they turned one of the greatest badguys, with his crosses and double crosses and even tripple crosses into a good guy. So you can just tell by the end of peace walker it will lead to the start of the s2 plan that will need a legendary solider pretend to hijack metal gear, threaten amarica and die a traitor to his country. history repeating itself and no1 is a badguy really.
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"Whoever wins, our battle does not end, the loser is freed from the battlefield, but the winner must remain there. And the survivor must live his life as a warrior until he dies." | |
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| Helikaon | Oct 19 2009, 10:14:06 PM Post #22 |
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Good guy? How are any of the playable protagonists in the series good guys? To a man they're all cold blooded, remorseless killers. They're all cold, emotionally shut off hard asses. At their very best they're Anti-Heroes, at their worst they're down right evil (Big Boss, Raiden [though it isn't really his fault, he didn't know any better. That wont comfort the hundreds of families he destroyed though]). That's why I like the Snake's so much, they're not your clean cut all American super hero, they're all seriously fucked up people who try to do the right thing, even though to do it they have to commit horrific acts. Besides MGS3 didn't change anything about Big Boss' backstory that wasn't there before, it added a shit tonne but the fundamentals remained, in fact the only thing that did change was the reason he lost his eye (though the eye was also changed). We all knew he was once a loyal American soldier who for some reason betrayed the US. All Snake Eater, MPO and PW have done is show us why he did a FaceHeel-Turn, he's still going to become the inane madman we saw in MG2, at least according to the MGS4 Database and Big Boss' own words in MGS4. |
![]() The less people know about the truth, the more they can fantasize. My blog! Clicky clicky. PSN ID: doctorstrangesf | |
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| Big Boss. | Oct 19 2009, 11:35:54 PM Post #23 |
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they are good guys the story teller makes you care about them, faced against impossible odds they do what it takes to beat the bad guys. I think campbell even says it in mgs to naomi "it's true snakes killed a lot of people, doesn't mean he hasn't got a heart" or something to that effect. maybe anti-hero is a better terminology for it but the point still stands, it was great to see big bosses back story but if they can rewrite a really good villian to be good guy or a very anti-hero it won't surprise me to see big boss following in the shoes of the boss. |
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"Whoever wins, our battle does not end, the loser is freed from the battlefield, but the winner must remain there. And the survivor must live his life as a warrior until he dies." | |
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| Helikaon | Oct 19 2009, 11:43:38 PM Post #24 |
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Campbell is also a career soldier, he's the same as Snake, he's a hired murderer. Just because Snake has a heart doesn't mean we should forget that he kills people without a second thought and shows no discernible reaction to it. None of the playable characters in Metal Gear Solid can be called a "hero" by any definition of the word that I've read. Richard Kuklinski, one of the most infamous contract killers in La Cosa Nostra history was by all accounts a family man who doted on his family. Doesn't excuse that he killed over two hundred people in increasingly sadistic ways. Same deal as Solid Snake. Spider-Man is a hero. Batman is a hero (though that depends on the writer and the series). Superman is a hero. Naked Snake, Solid Snake and Raiden are not. |
![]() The less people know about the truth, the more they can fantasize. My blog! Clicky clicky. PSN ID: doctorstrangesf | |
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| Big Boss. | Oct 19 2009, 11:52:17 PM Post #25 |
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aaahhh but this is war, in war it's not counted as murder they are soliders on a battefield. your contract killer is just that a killer not fighting for something. well except money but thats not the same.
Edited by Big Boss., Oct 19 2009, 11:54:47 PM.
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"Whoever wins, our battle does not end, the loser is freed from the battlefield, but the winner must remain there. And the survivor must live his life as a warrior until he dies." | |
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| Helikaon | Oct 20 2009, 12:03:52 AM Post #26 |
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War? I was unaware that Operation Snake Eater was a war. I was unaware that Shadow Moses constituted all out open warfare. I didn't know that the Big Shell was an open conflict. War and employment is not an excuse. Soldiers kill people, killing a fellow human is a crime against nature. Heroes do not kill people in such a casual way. |
![]() The less people know about the truth, the more they can fantasize. My blog! Clicky clicky. PSN ID: doctorstrangesf | |
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| £ | Oct 20 2009, 12:07:10 AM Post #27 |
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The whole point of mgs is there is no 'good guy' If you think Snake, or any of the playable protagonists are GI joe style good guys, and the antagonists are otherwise then you're utterly missing the point of the whole series. |
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| Big Boss. | Oct 20 2009, 12:22:00 AM Post #28 |
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well if thats how you think then thats your preogative, but if say one of our soliders in afghanistan was given a top secret mission to get behind enemy lines, stop bin ladens nuke and take him out saving the world in the process i would call him a hero one of the good guys even if he had killed 20+ afghans in the process.yes there is you have the bad guys = using metal gears to attack innocent civilians. and you have the good guys = the ones who want to stop them. Good vs evil, hero vs villian. It's gets very messy amongst the metal gear story but stripped bare you have big boss vs volgin, snake vs big boss twice, snake vs liquid, raiden vs solidus you see its when they loose this base and try to turn villian to hero or anti-hero it can ruin things for example big boss and ocelot end of mgs 4. having them turn from hero to villian much better Edited by Orca*, Oct 20 2009, 01:34:41 AM.
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"Whoever wins, our battle does not end, the loser is freed from the battlefield, but the winner must remain there. And the survivor must live his life as a warrior until he dies." | |
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| £ | Oct 20 2009, 12:56:45 AM Post #29 |
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No. Just no. Obviously you have perception of the story totally wrong. There is no good or evil in this story. Big Boss wanted soldiers to be free. That's not evil. To do this he was willing to blow up the world. That's not good. Zero wanted world peace. That's not bad. To do this he wanted the whole world under his authority. That is bad. Snake Saved the world. That's good. He only did it because all he knows is how to kill, and he enjoyed the killing. That's bad. Raiden is the same. Solidus wanted the world to be free from the patriots. That's good. He was willing to let millions die. That's bad. Liquid wanted what Big Boss wanted, and he wanted to save his 'family.', that's kind of good. He liked killing people. That's bad. Ocelot wanted to free Big Boss. That's kind of good, I guess. He also liked torturing people, and murdered many for fun. That's bad. The Boss, who is arguably the most 'good' character in the game was still a killer, who risked nuclear obliteration of the world if her understudy failed. Otacon created deadly weapons. Naomi did a lot of fucked up shit. FOXDIE, etc. Grey Fox killed many people and tried to help Big Boss blow the world up. In MGS1, he saved the world by sacrificing himself. Meryl wanted to be like her father. That's bad, because he was a killer. Campbell is also a killer, and lied to Snake various times. Am I missing anyone? The whole game is based on the 'duality of man', as Full metal Jacket would say. Edited by £, Oct 20 2009, 12:57:04 AM.
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| Doakes | Oct 20 2009, 01:11:52 AM Post #30 |
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First off, you don't wanna double post bud, that's what the edit button is for. Second of all, there are only a handful of characters in the MGS universe you can legitimately classify as evil with nothing but evil intentions: Cunningham and Fatman. None of these guys had any motive beyond harming innocent people. Even Volgin, while an incredibly evil individual, had motives that restituted as legitimate goals, "making the world whole." Whatever he really meant by that could be interpreted however you'd wish to do so. Cunningham and Fatman had no end goals. Cunningham was just a brute who intended to let Gene fire a nuke at Russia to fuel the war the CIA needed. And Fatman was just a raging lunatic, pure and simple. Now, you have ANTAGONISTS, yes. But not bad guys, that phrase is so overplayed and broad that it really doesn't have the same meaning that it used to have. The guys using Metal Gears had motives behind them. Liquid intended to fire the nukes to free his army and to bring an end to control, and to destroy the SOP system freeing the world from the Patriot Network. Solidus intended to use Arsenal to exterminate the Patriots, to liberate the world at the price of a few countless thousands of masses. A sacrifice he was willing to make. And Gene's intention was to free the world from the Philosophers, and to liberate his soldiers from the whims of corrupt government politics, again, at the price of the people killed in his attack. They had goals, noble or not, it was what made them unique characters. Heroic antagonists. To simply up and call them "bad guys," does no justice whatsoever to their cause and characteristics. Same falls for the protagonists. Yes they are protagonists, but not the goody goody good guys. Snake was a cold blooded killer, he knew that and he was okay with that. He accepted that the term "hero" was bullshit on the battlefield, that there was no room for "heroes" in the battlefield. Raiden was a weapon since his childhood, forced to kill people without mercy or compassion, he was almost brain washed by Solidus, to be a true monster, it was his choice to live beyond being a weapon at the end of MGS4 that made him stand out above being a monster, but it didn't change the fact that he still embraced his killing skills to survive. The driving force isn't always good vs evil. It's more often than not, conflicting end goals. Gene vs Naked Snake. "You and your phony ideals can go to hell!" "This is our calling, it's all part of a greater mission!" Gene isn't an "evil" man. Snake wasn't a "good" man. Gene wanted to free soldiers from being pawns to governments world wide, to be more than extendable tools to the fueled wars of each government. And Snake wanted to free soldiers from having to be tools to one mans ambition, at this point, that man was Gene. Volgin vs Naked Snake. Volgin perhaps wasn't as noble as Gene, but ultimately it was for his motherland that he was the sadistic tyrant we all loved to hate. This was a matter of nationalism. Snake wasn't going to let Volgin use the Shagohod against the U.S. and Volgin wasn't going to let Snake stop him from bringing the world back to stability. Though for Snake, this was more of a hired hit than it was a true calling, because killing Volgin wasn't part of his initial game plan until Kruschev forced Johnson to make Snake kill him. Is it really fair to call either of those truly good or truly evil? |
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| Orca* | Oct 20 2009, 01:33:24 AM Post #31 |
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Not even the same ball-park. Big Boss was engaged in a private fight with ZERO over difference of opinion and method, not emotional problems relating to his mental and physical development. So come on, make a decent bridging parallel. Big Boss and ZERO aren't a couple of kids, they're veteran soldiers aiming to change the world, and their personal grudge escalated to the point where it threatened to destroy the world via their individual resources. It was an arms race of sorts, a cold war, a chess game. Big players play big games. The world proved to be to small a board.
No. Difference between a murderer and a soldier is the former kills for personal satisfaction, while the latter kills for the sake of their duty — they do something horrible because it's (supposed to be) the best decision. 'Hired murderer' — very bad definition. Most soldiers retain PTSD throughout their lives; nightmares, memories, reflexes, etc., very few are comfy with their actions, psychologically fine with what they did — regardless of apparent apathy. 'Hero' is a dumb term, granted, but you'd reduce any soldier to the definition of a criminal?
Heros don't kill, period - they tend to save people. ![]() So what is a war then? Because, honestly, legalities and definitions tend to to mean fuck-all when bullets start flying and people start dying. What would you call Shadow Moses then? Or Big Shell? Or Operation: Snake Eater — a covert op sanctioned by two recognized superpowers. And, Crime against nature? Nah — animals kill for sport, war, fight for the hell of it and kill each other for genetic and social reasons. People are no different. We're just socially conditioned to try to not to kill one another. |
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| Big Boss. | Oct 20 2009, 09:29:00 AM Post #32 |
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however you want to call them this is moving away from the point, which was up untill mgs 4 (with the exception of mgs3 for naked snake) big boss and ocelot were the villians or the antagonists of the series if you will. By the end of mgs 4 they reverse this to become the protagonists and your left feeling wait a minute every other game i'm ment to hate these people. Ocelot with his sadistic torture nature and would cross anyone to reach his goals, and big boss who would happily launch nukes at innocent civilans, suddenly its oh well yes they did do nasty things but its ok really because there is a reason behind it. And its with that in mind that it wouldn't suprise me by the end of peace walker it will retcon mg and mg2 to the extent that big boss wasn't really doing "some crazy ass shit" because there is an good and honest reason behind it. but i do hope koji proves me wrong. Edited by Big Boss., Oct 20 2009, 09:30:12 AM.
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"Whoever wins, our battle does not end, the loser is freed from the battlefield, but the winner must remain there. And the survivor must live his life as a warrior until he dies." | |
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| Doakes | Oct 20 2009, 10:39:07 PM Post #33 |
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MG and MG2 were way back in the day, while the story was developed, the main focus behind them was too thrifty to really be considered into being added fully into the current MGS story. The central idea that Big Boss became a man willing to kill countless people is still there, but the motives behind it had to be somewhat legitimate. If not construed back then, we could at least learn by the end of PW what they are. Because Kojima doesn't write in a way that it IS that simple, "these are the good guys, these are the bad guys." This isn't MG1 and MG2 we're talking about, we're talking MGS storyline here. And in that point, while there are relatively evil characters, or characters with evil characteristics, there's always more to it than that. What Big Boss truly wanted with the nukes is really too hazy when comparing MG1 to MGS, a nation for soldiers, what that truly meant, well hell if I know. That doesn't mean he legitimately lost his mind and became Cobra Commander. "MWAHAHAHAHA!! NOW I SHALL DESTROY THESE MOTHERFUCKERS AND NOBODY CAN SSSSSSSSTOP ME HAHAHAHAHA!!!....oh hi Snake...." I mean, retcon or not, would it really be so bad to think Big Boss had legitimate motives behind what he did in MG1 to MG2, to justify the sorta at peace man we saw in MGS4? I know everyone wants to see him finally turn, I sure as hell do, but do you want it to be with just reason behind it, or straight up bring on GI Joe cheesy comic book super villain? Plus I mean who really cares if it's a retcon or not, while it changes his characteristics, the story would still be the same. I mean is everyone really so uptight about these sorta things that they'd let it ruin a game for them? Edited by Doakes, Oct 20 2009, 10:39:59 PM.
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| Helikaon | Oct 20 2009, 10:58:19 PM Post #34 |
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The reason I want still want him to become some cackling "I'm gonna tell you my plan and leave the room" comic book bad guy is because it makes his eventual redemption in MGS4 all the sweeter, it means Big Boss actually realized "Holy shit, I was an asshole" and actively changed, that's character progression I can get behind. Just changing the events is lazy, as would be using his Cold War with Zero as a reason to justify his actions. At this point in time, Big Boss is still going to have Madnar build Metal Gear. He's still going to do it again. He's still going to threaten to launch. These are not the actions of a sane man. Do I think he's going to be shitting himself and smearing it on the walls? No, but I still think he is going to become mentally unstable. Just because he's having his own private war with Zero does not change that he's willing to annihilate the human race to achieve his goals. |
![]() The less people know about the truth, the more they can fantasize. My blog! Clicky clicky. PSN ID: doctorstrangesf | |
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| Machinegun Kid | Oct 20 2009, 11:26:48 PM Post #35 |
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Reason enough to go AWOL no? Submitted way to early -_-" Anyway... These soldiers under BB's command, there mercenaries at the end of the day, a merc is a professional soldier who chooses to fight for a foreign force, in this case... BB's Force. Why... What made these mercenaries leave there country/government and fight for Big Boss? Maybe this is what finally pushed BB over the edge? These mercenaries obviously left there country/government for a good reason simular to BB's reason and maybe Big Boss felt it was time to pay the world back for what it had done to him and his men? Not the MAIN reason as to why he finally clicks but a contributing factor? Just a thought. Edited by Machinegun Kid, Oct 21 2009, 12:05:26 AM.
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| Helikaon | Oct 21 2009, 02:19:05 AM Post #36 |
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I'm assuming the MSF recruits are the survivors of the San Hieronymo Incident. At first I just jumped straight in with "Zero would have them executed" but then I remembered that Big Boss wouldn't have let that happen, after all he joined the Patriots pretty soon after MPO (though I can't remember if it was '71 or very early '72 [because he left in the same year], if '72 then forget it, they'd be long dead), plus at the end of MPO they salute him personally showing that they still consider him their leader even though the incident is over. I quite like the idea that he saved them from (at the worst) Zero's death squads or (at the best) Leavenworth and recruited them as a personal guard, so that when he left the Patriots (which has already happened by now) they simply followed and formed the base of his new mercenary company. For the others I'd just put it down to the reasons anyone becomes a mercenary:
On the reason deal, Snake has already come to terms with soldiers being used, that wouldn't be enough to push him over the edge. To be honest I'm more interested in why Miller is with him. I'm calling it now: he's a CIA/Zero plant, this will contribute to his BSOD over Zero, he seems to trust Kaz. |
![]() The less people know about the truth, the more they can fantasize. My blog! Clicky clicky. PSN ID: doctorstrangesf | |
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| Big Boss. | Oct 21 2009, 08:37:12 AM Post #37 |
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if liquid had found out he was a zero spy could be the reason he killed him in MGS1 |
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"Whoever wins, our battle does not end, the loser is freed from the battlefield, but the winner must remain there. And the survivor must live his life as a warrior until he dies." | |
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| Helikaon | Oct 21 2009, 09:13:04 AM Post #38 |
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No, Liquid had him killed so he could impersonate him. Nothing deeper there. Also Liquid wouldn't really care, it doesn't affect him in any way other than probably amusing him that Big Boss trusted him and was betrayed again. Assuming of course that Kaz is a spy. |
![]() The less people know about the truth, the more they can fantasize. My blog! Clicky clicky. PSN ID: doctorstrangesf | |
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| Big Boss. | Oct 21 2009, 09:43:47 AM Post #39 |
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but isn't liquid after the patriots, in natasha's book she says that liquid talks directly to them via snakes codec when he's knocked out just before the fight ontop of rex. |
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"Whoever wins, our battle does not end, the loser is freed from the battlefield, but the winner must remain there. And the survivor must live his life as a warrior until he dies." | |
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| Helikaon | Oct 21 2009, 10:04:17 AM Post #40 |
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At that point in time the Patriots weren't Zero/Anderson/Clark any more, they were already the AI system, or at least a prototype version of the system in place by MGS2 (I believe Emma refined the system), Miller being a spy wouldn't effect Liquid or his goals at all. Miller's death by that point was purely so he could impersonate him flawlessly. I'm guessing in that conversation Liquid just did a bit of gloating and teasing. Besides I'm not really sure Miller could be a spy, as Big Boss kept him close and recruited him into the first FOXHOUND, a unit that he filled with people he trusted. Though of course it could just be a case of "Keep your friends close, keep your enemies closer". |
![]() The less people know about the truth, the more they can fantasize. My blog! Clicky clicky. PSN ID: doctorstrangesf | |
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