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An Enemy of America
Topic Started: Apr 8 2010, 04:46:14 AM (2,330 Views)
JohnKiller118
The man in a pickle suit.
Actually, the end of MGS3 confirms that FOX HOUND was established in 1971.
Edited by JohnKiller118, Apr 10 2010, 05:42:25 PM.
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freddiegibbs


Yeah, it wont be retconned.
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JohnKiller118
The man in a pickle suit.
So your theory's good too.

Edit: Damn, this is going to suck when we beat the game and realize nothing makes sense anymore.
Edited by JohnKiller118, Apr 10 2010, 05:46:14 PM.
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Weedle_McHairybug
Hi-Tech Soldier
Quote:
 


Maybe not explicitly, but it was pretty much heavily implied that it was in Zanzibar Land.

Maybe I'll quote the entire conversation:

Quote:
 
Snake : I don't have any family. No wait, there was a man who said he was
my father...

Naomi : Where is he?

Snake : Dead. By my own hand.

Campbell : Big Boss.

Naomi : What!? Big Boss!? I had no idea.

Campbell : There was no way you could. It happened in Zanzibar 6 years ago.
Only Snake and I know the real truth of what happened there.


After Roy Campbell said that to Naomi, she basically said that she had no idea (about Big Boss being Snake's father), and Roy Campbell told her that the reason why she didn't know is because "it happened in Zanzibar 6 years ago." and that only Snake and himself knew the real truth about what happened there.

That was supposed to imply that Big Boss had told Snake that he was his father during that point. Although if you have a better theory as to what Campbell meant, bring it out. Maybe you have something that will prove this implication wrong.
Edited by Weedle_McHairybug, Apr 10 2010, 05:56:41 PM.
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October Rust
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"Saint Lucifer hear me praying to thee...on this eve, of all saints."

Seems crystal clear to me. Dunno how anyone could question that. I believe that conversation happens when you get captured and it's after the first torture session.
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JohnKiller118
The man in a pickle suit.
@Weedle
Did you even read the article?
The conversation changed to how Snake killed Big Boss when he said "dead, by my own hands."
And the re-release in Subsistence (with the first official English translation) didn't bother changing this.
Edited by JohnKiller118, Apr 10 2010, 06:01:13 PM.
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Weedle_McHairybug
Hi-Tech Soldier
JohnKiller118
Apr 10 2010, 06:00:55 PM
@Weedle
Did you even read the article?
The conversation changed to how Snake killed Big Boss when he said "dead, by my own hands."
And the re-release in Subsistence (with the first official English translation) didn't bother changing this.
Yeah, I read it. Heck, I read it when you first showed the article back in the Evil Big Boss, please thread.

However, that's still not enough to convince either me or someone else, seeing how, yes, Snake never flat out stated that Big Boss told him in Zanzibar Land, but the conversation, ESPECIALLY Roy Campbell's statement of "There's no way you could. It happened in Zanzibar Land 6 years ago. Only Snake and I know the real truth about what happened there." was meant to imply that Big Boss told him in Zanzibar Land.

As for why they didn't bother to include it in the Metal Gear 2: Solid Snake game's rerelease, maybe they just didn't bother changing the script?
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JohnKiller118
The man in a pickle suit.
Okay, whatever you want to believe, I guess.

Anyway, they bothered to change the talking heads to make them look less like actors and more like Shinkawa art work. You'd think adding one little line in the ending wouldn't be much work in comparison. ;)
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freddiegibbs


JohnKiller118
Apr 10 2010, 06:00:55 PM
@Weedle
Did you even read the article?
The conversation changed to how Snake killed Big Boss when he said "dead, by my own hands."
And the re-release in Subsistence (with the first official English translation) didn't bother changing this.
And it's brought back on again when Naomo says "What!? Big Boss!? I had no idea." As if she's saying she had no idea Snake killed Big Boss.
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Weedle_McHairybug
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JohnKiller118
Apr 10 2010, 06:16:45 PM
Okay, whatever you want to believe, I guess.

Anyway, they bothered to change the talking heads to make them look less like actors and more like Shinkawa art work. You'd think adding one little line in the ending wouldn't be much work in comparison. ;)
By "changing the script," I was actually meaning the actual dialogue, not the character portraits.

Quote:
 
And it's brought back on again when Naomo says "What!? Big Boss!? I had no idea." As if she's saying she had no idea Snake killed Big Boss.


Not to mention that it already is common knowledge that Big Boss was killed by Solid Snake in-game. They even referenced Big Boss's death in the briefing section in the beginning of the game (you know, the infamous blond snake one?). Heck, even his tombstone is in reference to his "death" (193X-1999).
Edited by Weedle_McHairybug, Apr 10 2010, 06:21:16 PM.
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JohnKiller118
The man in a pickle suit.
Weedle_McHairybug
Apr 10 2010, 06:18:29 PM
By "changing the script," I was actually meaning the actual dialogue, not the character portraits.
:glare:
I know... that was the point...
The re-did the character portraits, but not simple text.
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The_Kumatei
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Jail Guard
BB is the enemy of America because he is a merc at Outer Heaven, and ends up having the entire world hate him. Plus it's going against the Patriots ideals, which is led by Zero, which is in America.

I don't understand how these retcons supposedly change major details in the plot. The retcons for MG and MG2 were mostly from the images, like JohnKiller has been saying. MPO won't have to be retconned, it was just filling in details, which is likely what PW will do.
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Soriddo Sunēku
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The Man Who Sold The World
Quote:
 
BB is the enemy of America because he is a merc at Outer Heaven, and ends up having the entire world hate him. Plus it's going against the Patriots ideals, which is led by Zero, which is in America.

What an astute observation.
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JohnKiller118
The man in a pickle suit.
Legendary Sniper
Apr 10 2010, 05:59:38 PM
Seems crystal clear to me. Dunno how anyone could question that. I believe that conversation happens when you get captured and it's after the first torture session.
The only reason that's so is because that's what you want to hear.

Granin
 
JohnKiller118
Apr 10 2010, 06:00:55 PM
@Weedle
Did you even read the article?
The conversation changed to how Snake killed Big Boss when he said "dead, by my own hands."
And the re-release in Subsistence (with the first official English translation) didn't bother changing this.
And it's brought back on again when Naomo says "What!? Big Boss!? I had no idea." As if she's saying she had no idea Snake killed Big Boss.
Or... she was surprised that Big Boss was involved in Snake's story at all.
She later asked "So, is it true? Was Big Boss really your father?"
Now, why would she ask that if they just talked about it?
It's because the subject went from "Oh, this one guy said he was my father" to "Yeah, I killed him", then after Campbell said "Only Snake and I know what really happened there" (he was referring to Snake killing Big Boss, mind you), Naomi brought it back to "So, Big Boss is your father?"

Weedle
 
Not to mention that it already is common knowledge that Big Boss was killed by Solid Snake in-game. They even referenced Big Boss's death in the briefing section in the beginning of the game (you know, the infamous blond snake one?). Heck, even his tombstone is in reference to his "death" (193X-1999).
It was common knowledge that he DIED! Not that it was SNAKE that did it.

It doesn't matter what you THINK it was supposed to imply.
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Weedle_McHairybug
Hi-Tech Soldier
JohnKiller118
Apr 24 2010, 07:09:10 PM
Legendary Sniper
Apr 10 2010, 05:59:38 PM
Seems crystal clear to me. Dunno how anyone could question that. I believe that conversation happens when you get captured and it's after the first torture session.
The only reason that's so is because that's what you want to hear.

Granin
 
JohnKiller118
Apr 10 2010, 06:00:55 PM
@Weedle
Did you even read the article?
The conversation changed to how Snake killed Big Boss when he said "dead, by my own hands."
And the re-release in Subsistence (with the first official English translation) didn't bother changing this.
And it's brought back on again when Naomo says "What!? Big Boss!? I had no idea." As if she's saying she had no idea Snake killed Big Boss.
Or... she was surprised that Big Boss was involved in Snake's story at all.
She later asked "So, is it true? Was Big Boss really your father?"
Now, why would she ask that if they just talked about it?
It's because the subject went from "Oh, this one guy said he was my father" to "Yeah, I killed him", then after Campbell said "Only Snake and I know what really happened there" (he was referring to Snake killing Big Boss, mind you), Naomi brought it back to "So, Big Boss is your father?"

Weedle
 
Not to mention that it already is common knowledge that Big Boss was killed by Solid Snake in-game. They even referenced Big Boss's death in the briefing section in the beginning of the game (you know, the infamous blond snake one?). Heck, even his tombstone is in reference to his "death" (193X-1999).
It was common knowledge that he DIED! Not that it was SNAKE that did it.

It doesn't matter what you THINK it was supposed to imply.
She knew that Solid Snake was involved in the Zanzibar Land incident, seeing how one of the reasons why she had Snake injected with FOXDIE was so she could exact revenge on him for both killing Big Boss as well as crippling Gray Fox and indirectly being responsible for putting him through the Gene Therapy Project. She explicitly stated that she wanted revenge for what Snake did to not only Gray Fox, but also to Big Boss as well during her call to Snake shortly after Snake heated up the PAL key to become red. It definitely wasn't an afterthought either.

You know what, believe what you want to believe, you're still wrong.
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JohnKiller118
The man in a pickle suit.
Weedle_McHairybug
Apr 24 2010, 07:35:32 PM
She knew that Solid Snake was involved in the Zanzibar Land incident, seeing how one of the reasons why she had Snake injected with FOXDIE was so she could exact revenge on him for both killing Big Boss as well as crippling Gray Fox and indirectly being responsible for putting him through the Gene Therapy Project. She explicitly stated that she wanted revenge for what Snake did to not only Gray Fox, but also to Big Boss as well during her call to Snake shortly after Snake heated up the PAL key to become red. It definitely wasn't an afterthought either.

You know what, believe what you want to believe, you're still wrong.
I know Naomi knew Snake killed Big Boss, but it's still not common knowledge. She was surprised that Big Boss was Snake's father, but Campbell assumed that she was surprised that Snake killed Big Boss (okay, Campbell knew she was surprised by both revelations, but I already explained that.)

Even so, Naomi would act like she was surprised that Snake killed Big Boss so that no one would get suspicious of her goal to take revenge on Snake.

Just admit that it could be interpreted both ways, though since the re-release of Metal Gear 2 on disk 2 of Subsistence, despite taking the time to update the talking heads, couldn't be bothered to add one line in Big Boss's speech that says "I am your father", I think it's safe to say that I'M right, and YOU'RE wrong.
Edited by JohnKiller118, Apr 24 2010, 07:47:35 PM.
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Weedle_McHairybug
Hi-Tech Soldier
JohnKiller118
Apr 24 2010, 07:44:25 PM
Weedle_McHairybug
Apr 24 2010, 07:35:32 PM
She knew that Solid Snake was involved in the Zanzibar Land incident, seeing how one of the reasons why she had Snake injected with FOXDIE was so she could exact revenge on him for both killing Big Boss as well as crippling Gray Fox and indirectly being responsible for putting him through the Gene Therapy Project. She explicitly stated that she wanted revenge for what Snake did to not only Gray Fox, but also to Big Boss as well during her call to Snake shortly after Snake heated up the PAL key to become red. It definitely wasn't an afterthought either.

You know what, believe what you want to believe, you're still wrong.
I know Naomi knew Snake killed Big Boss, but it's still not common knowledge. She was surprised that Big Boss was Snake's father, but Campbell assumed that she was surprised that Snake killed Big Boss (okay, Campbell knew she was surprised by both revelations, but I already explained that.)

Even so, Naomi would act like she was surprised that Snake killed Big Boss so that no one would get suspicious of her goal to take revenge on Snake.

Just admit that it could be interpreted both ways, though since the re-release of Metal Gear 2 on disk 2 of Subsistence, despite taking the time to update the talking heads, couldn't be bothered to add one line in Big Boss's speech that says "I am your father", I think it's safe to say that I'M right, and YOU'RE wrong.
The only thing that the whole rerelease proved is that they didn't take the time to update the old information.

And either way, as you and I both said, she did know that Big Boss was killed by Solid Snake. That definitely would not have been the thing she was surprised at, even IF she was faking. Roy Campbell also knew that Snake was injected with FOXDIE. The only other thing that the exchange was supposed to imply was that Solid Snake learned of his heritage during Zanzibar Land.
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JohnKiller118
The man in a pickle suit.
Weedle_McHairybug
Apr 24 2010, 08:02:54 PM
The only thing that the whole rerelease proved is that they didn't take the time to update the old information.
They updated the fucking talking heads! Gray Fox looks emo now! I think they would have enough time to update the text during the TRANSLATION process!

Quote:
 
And either way, as you and I both said, she did know that Big Boss was killed by Solid Snake. That definitely would not have been the thing she was surprised at, even IF she was faking. Roy Campbell also knew that Snake was injected with FOXDIE. The only other thing that the exchange was supposed to imply was that Solid Snake learned of his heritage during Zanzibar Land.
I fail to see how Campbell knowing that Snake was injected with FOXDIE has to do with any of this.
She was surprised that Big Boss was Snake's father. But she also faked that she was surprised that Snake killed Big Boss to hide her goal to take revenge on Solid Snake.
Since Big Boss' death was brought up, Campbell assumed that Naomi was surprised that Snake killed Big Boss, since he didn't know that Naomi knew that it was Snake that killed Big Boss, so he told her that "It happened at Zanzibar 6 years ago. Only Snake and I know the what really happened there."
Edited by JohnKiller118, Apr 24 2010, 08:13:09 PM.
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freddiegibbs


Calm down again John Killer, you're going to get warned with this attitude.
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JohnKiller118
The man in a pickle suit.
Granin
Apr 24 2010, 10:26:02 PM
Calm down again John Killer, you're going to get warned with this attitude.
Oh come on! ONE curse word! That's it!
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