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Do you think that Peace Walker should of had characters from MGS3 and PO?
Topic Started: Jul 31 2010, 08:16:34 AM (2,796 Views)
Weedle_McHairybug
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gray foxdie
Aug 2 2010, 12:38:24 AM
BigOcelot
Jul 31 2010, 08:16:34 AM
I really thought Null/Gray Fox was going to be in this game, I wouldn't of mind if Sokolov was in too, but he might take some spotlight from Huey.
sokolov take hueys spotlight you're a comedian sokolov couldnt make a metal gear to save his life.
Come to think of it, DID Sokolov actually create RAXA/ICBMG? I mean, I know he was involved in its development, but it seemed more likely that he would have been involved in the rocket that launched it into space and not the actual RAXA/ICBMG itself.
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BusterHarvey
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I think it was best the characters from MGS3/PO didn't make an appearance, it makes it feel more realistic to me.
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Weedle_McHairybug
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BusterHarvey
Aug 2 2010, 10:32:28 AM
I think it was best the characters from MGS3/PO didn't make an appearance, it makes it feel more realistic to me.
Well, couldn't they at least receive a mention, at least without actually appearing? EVA did without actually appearing.

Besides, they still need to address the issue on Python's canonical fate, especially considering how that hack of a Metal Gear Solid 4 Database failed to actually address the issue.
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DaSeala
Chip on his shoulder and shit for brains
Isn't really that important, that was a player decision. Just like up until MGS4, we were never sure of meryl's fate.

i actually thought myself Metal Gear RAXA was one of the best concepts in the series, next to the shagohod and REX, but like most things in MPO, it was badly handled what with Ursula controlling it.
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Weedle; inability to comprehend anything but the literal
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Solid Gally
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Weedle_McHairybug
Jul 31 2010, 05:32:44 PM
Solid Gally
Jul 31 2010, 04:54:11 PM
The one character that I missed was Ocelot. I think he could have easily been implemented into the story (even if it had just been in a secret tape).

On the other hand I think that Gray Fox's absence was completely valid.
Gray Fox was FOXHOUND through and through, all the way up until the time of the Zanzibar Land uprising.

If that was retconned (merely as an excuse to put him in PW), then I would have been a bit annoyed.
In my opinion 'Null' was handled awfully in Portable Ops as it is, and the Frank Jaeger character could have been further ruined in PW, had he been included.

EDIT: As for Sokolov, I'd find his inclusion to be completely unnecessary. His story finished in MGS3 and really didn't need to go any further. He was used in MPO to little effect. Henceforth, I'm glad that he wasn't in PW.
Well, technically, Gray Fox wasn't entirely in FOXHOUND from the start as he participated in Mercenary missions in the Mozambician Civil War.
True. But as far as the series as a whole goes, we aren't ever informed of him being a member
of Outer Heaven (or MSF). Rather, we're told that by the time of Metal Gear 1, Fox is oblivious to the fact that Big Boss controls Outer Heaven (why else would him and Snake get along so well in MG1?)

The point being, that Gray Fox didn't need to be in PW (especially after being retconned to death in MPO).
He was recruited into FOXHOUND in MPO. That part is done.

Where we stand chronologically right now (after PW); we have to wait until MG2 for him to join Big Boss' side as a terrorist/war criminal. Until then, he's a FOXHOUND grunt.

Unless of course, that gets retconned too. :rolleyes:

In short, they should just leave Gray Fox alone for now after the debacle that was MPO.
-And they did with PW. Which is why Mr.Kojima gets a thumbs up from me. :thumb:
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Weedle_McHairybug
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MrDaseala
Aug 2 2010, 10:09:01 PM
Isn't really that important, that was a player decision. Just like up until MGS4, we were never sure of meryl's fate.

i actually thought myself Metal Gear RAXA was one of the best concepts in the series, next to the shagohod and REX, but like most things in MPO, it was badly handled what with Ursula controlling it.
To be fair, RAXA was a test model, so it wasn't going to fully live up to your expectations, anyways. Heck, if Metal Gear was not the first game released, then you probably would have felt some sense of anticlimaticness about "defeating" Metal Gear as it wasn't even a threat that moment, and wasn't even a boss fight.

As for the whole player decision thing, I might as well point out that "In the Darkness of Shadow Moses" actually implied that Meryl's survival was canon, so Metal Gear Solid 4 wasn't entirely responsible for confirming her fate. All MGS4 really did was give her an appearance to make the confirmation final, that's all. In fact, the only thing about Meryl that MGS4 actually confirmed, period (as in, regardless of whether it was the first or final confirmation) was that Meryl was actually Campbell's daughter (since that was actually only stated in the Meryl's Death situation), and even that was confirmed shortly before MGS4's release through MGS1 Novelization.

And it's still annoying that they'd not reveal Python's fate even IF it was just player's decision. Heck, why not make it further ambiguous that Johnny Sasaki survived in MGS2 due to the fact that the player in MGS1 actually had the option of killing Sasaki without any consequence whatsoever.

To Solid Gally, while I won't go so far as to say Gray Fox was not involved in Outer Heaven (for all we know, he may have known, and maybe even allowed himself to get captured), I do agree in that regard, especially considering that we still have the Mozambician War of Independence and Gray Fox fighting in that war against FREMILO, which doesn't even take place until after 1974.
Edited by Weedle_McHairybug, Aug 3 2010, 12:39:54 AM.
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RandomHajile
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gray foxdie
Aug 2 2010, 12:38:24 AM
BigOcelot
Jul 31 2010, 08:16:34 AM
I really thought Null/Gray Fox was going to be in this game, I wouldn't of mind if Sokolov was in too, but he might take some spotlight from Huey.
sokolov take hueys spotlight you're a comedian sokolov couldnt make a metal gear to save his life.
First I was like " :hmm: " But then I was like " :D "

Sokolov built the Shagohod, which was probably the most relatively formidable "Metal Gear". Considering it had to be burned, split in two, shot at, then struck by lightning to be destroyed. He also designed RAXA/ICBMG, technically the first operational bipedal Metal Gear.
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Weedle_McHairybug
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RandomHajile
Aug 3 2010, 06:40:01 AM
gray foxdie
Aug 2 2010, 12:38:24 AM
BigOcelot
Jul 31 2010, 08:16:34 AM
I really thought Null/Gray Fox was going to be in this game, I wouldn't of mind if Sokolov was in too, but he might take some spotlight from Huey.
sokolov take hueys spotlight you're a comedian sokolov couldnt make a metal gear to save his life.
First I was like " :hmm: " But then I was like " :D "

Sokolov built the Shagohod, which was probably the most relatively formidable "Metal Gear". Considering it had to be burned, split in two, shot at, then struck by lightning to be destroyed. He also designed RAXA/ICBMG, technically the first operational bipedal Metal Gear.
Technically, the Shagohod isn't a metal gear, seeing how it was an entirely separate development from it.
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DaSeala
Chip on his shoulder and shit for brains
Shall we say nuclear platform just to be needlessly specific <_<
Quote:
 
Weedle; inability to comprehend anything but the literal
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Weedle_McHairybug
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MrDaseala
Aug 3 2010, 06:38:55 PM
Shall we say nuclear platform just to be needlessly specific <_<
Hey, in-canon, it was even specified to not be a Metal Gear (since they established that Granin was the one who created the Metal Gear menace in the first place), so the specifics actually are needed.
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DaSeala
Chip on his shoulder and shit for brains
Good lord, he said the Shagohod was the most 'relatively formidable Metal Gear'. Would it have made any difference if he said, 'relatively formidable Nuclear Platform.' No. So your being needlessly specific.
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Weedle; inability to comprehend anything but the literal
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Solid Gally
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Weedle_McHairybug
Aug 3 2010, 12:37:26 AM
To Solid Gally, while I won't go so far as to say Gray Fox was not involved in Outer Heaven (for all we know, he may have known, and maybe even allowed himself to get captured), I do agree in that regard, especially considering that we still have the Mozambician War of Independence and Gray Fox fighting in that war against FREMILO, which doesn't even take place until after 1974.
Its hard for me to get my point across without writing an essay (which takes too much effort).
However good ol' Ravi Singh on the Snake Soup already has done, of which pretty much echoes my sentiments.

http://thesnakesoup.org/?section=myths&content=null

^That is why I think that Gray Fox should be left alone for now.
The fact is, Portable Ops did nothing to Gray Fox's story other than make a completely disaster of it.
For random example, everybody here keeps mentioning the 'Mozambican War'.
But when you take a look at Portable Ops, its pretty impossible to add that to his story ark now (according to Portable Ops, Gray Fox's time in Mozambique happened before MPO).

Check that article out and you'll see what I mean.
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Master_Miller123
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The long lost fourth son...Plasma Snake
PW was made in an effort to undue to damage that PO did to the series,both from a story and reputation standpoint. So I'm not surprised to see that they had none of the PO cast back in any way shape or form.

And..I'm going to predict that some of the other characters that played a role in 3 and beyond will have more of a part in the squeal..e.g., EVA, Null/Grey Fox..maybe Cambell
Edited by Master_Miller123, Aug 3 2010, 11:44:53 PM.
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Weedle_McHairybug
Hi-Tech Soldier
Quote:
 
^That is why I think that Gray Fox should be left alone for now.
The fact is, Portable Ops did nothing to Gray Fox's story other than make a completely disaster of it.
For random example, everybody here keeps mentioning the 'Mozambican War'.
But when you take a look at Portable Ops, its pretty impossible to add that to his story ark now (according to Portable Ops, Gray Fox's time in Mozambique happened before MPO).

Check that article out and you'll see what I mean.


There are actually two Mozambician wars. There was the Mozambician War of Independence, which is the one Portable Ops mentioned, and there was the Mozambician Civil War, which is the one Gray Fox mentioned in MG2. Other than time placements, Naked Snake explicitly mentioned that Gray Fox/Null killed some Government Agents with a single knife while in FREMILO, which would only have been possible if it was in the Mozambician War of Independence (as the war was to drive out the Portugese from Mozambique), and after the war, either FREMILO became the ruling body of Mozambique or there was never a ruling body, as shortly afterwards, the Mozambician Civil War happened, which is when RENAMO was formed.

Plus, Campbell mentioned that Null was a mess both physically and mentally, and hints that he may not be able to live a normal life after that, which may explain why he was participating a lot in wars.

Quote:
 
PW was made in an effort to undue to damage that PO did to the series,both from a story and reputation standpoint.


They would have had to remove MGS4 from the timeline as well in order to fix up problems that MPO caused, seeing how it included elements of MPO into its story, including The Boss being set up.
Edited by Weedle_McHairybug, Aug 3 2010, 11:51:36 PM.
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DaSeala
Chip on his shoulder and shit for brains
Weedle_McHairybug
Aug 3 2010, 11:51:05 PM
Quote:
 
^That is why I think that Gray Fox should be left alone for now.
The fact is, Portable Ops did nothing to Gray Fox's story other than make a completely disaster of it.
For random example, everybody here keeps mentioning the 'Mozambican War'.
But when you take a look at Portable Ops, its pretty impossible to add that to his story ark now (according to Portable Ops, Gray Fox's time in Mozambique happened before MPO).

Check that article out and you'll see what I mean.


There are actually two Mozambician wars. There was the Mozambician War of Independence, which is the one Portable Ops mentioned, and there was the Mozambician Civil War, which is the one Gray Fox mentioned in MG2. Other than time placements, Naked Snake explicitly mentioned that Gray Fox/Null killed some Government Agents with a single knife while in FREMILO, which would only have been possible if it was in the Mozambician War of Independence (as the war was to drive out the Portugese from Mozambique), and after the war, either FREMILO became the ruling body of Mozambique or there was never a ruling body, as shortly afterwards, the Mozambician Civil War happened, which is when RENAMO was formed.

Plus, Campbell mentioned that Null was a mess both physically and mentally, and hints that he may not be able to live a normal life after that, which may explain why he was participating a lot in wars.

Quote:
 
PW was made in an effort to undue to damage that PO did to the series,both from a story and reputation standpoint.


They would have had to remove MGS4 from the timeline as well in order to fix up problems that MPO caused, seeing how it included elements of MPO into its story, including The Boss being set up.
I want to see you discuss that with that Ravi Singh whoever-the-fuck he is.
Quote:
 
Weedle; inability to comprehend anything but the literal
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Jade Wolf
Light Infantry
Solid Gally
Jul 31 2010, 04:54:11 PM
The one character that I missed was Ocelot. I think he could have easily been implemented into the story (even if it had just been in a secret tape).

On the other hand I think that Gray Fox's absence was completely valid.
Gray Fox was FOXHOUND through and through, all the way up until the time of the Zanzibar Land uprising.

If that was retconned (merely as an excuse to put him in PW), then I would have been a bit annoyed.
In my opinion 'Null' was handled awfully in Portable Ops as it is, and the Frank Jaeger character could have been further ruined in PW, had he been included.

EDIT: As for Sokolov, I'd find his inclusion to be completely unnecessary. His story finished in MGS3 and really didn't need to go any further. He was used in MPO to little effect. Henceforth, I'm glad that he wasn't in PW.
No need for me to say it, he already did.
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Solid Gally
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MrDaseala
Aug 4 2010, 01:40:27 PM
Weedle_McHairybug
Aug 3 2010, 11:51:05 PM
Quote:
 
^That is why I think that Gray Fox should be left alone for now.
The fact is, Portable Ops did nothing to Gray Fox's story other than make a completely disaster of it.
For random example, everybody here keeps mentioning the 'Mozambican War'.
But when you take a look at Portable Ops, its pretty impossible to add that to his story ark now (according to Portable Ops, Gray Fox's time in Mozambique happened before MPO).

Check that article out and you'll see what I mean.


There are actually two Mozambician wars. There was the Mozambician War of Independence, which is the one Portable Ops mentioned, and there was the Mozambician Civil War, which is the one Gray Fox mentioned in MG2. Other than time placements, Naked Snake explicitly mentioned that Gray Fox/Null killed some Government Agents with a single knife while in FREMILO, which would only have been possible if it was in the Mozambician War of Independence (as the war was to drive out the Portugese from Mozambique), and after the war, either FREMILO became the ruling body of Mozambique or there was never a ruling body, as shortly afterwards, the Mozambician Civil War happened, which is when RENAMO was formed.

Plus, Campbell mentioned that Null was a mess both physically and mentally, and hints that he may not be able to live a normal life after that, which may explain why he was participating a lot in wars.

Quote:
 
PW was made in an effort to undue to damage that PO did to the series,both from a story and reputation standpoint.


They would have had to remove MGS4 from the timeline as well in order to fix up problems that MPO caused, seeing how it included elements of MPO into its story, including The Boss being set up.
I want to see you discuss that with that Ravi Singh whoever-the-fuck he is.
If you're not familiar with the legendary Snake Soup, then you can't be all that familiar with MGS. <_<

EDIT: I say that half-joking btw. I'm not trying to sound (or be) elitist. But Snake Soup has always been pretty renowned for its humourous (yet intriguing and well written) articles. They've got a pretty huge forum over there, too (although their board rules are a little different to the rules here lol).

Ravi Singh is the guy who runs the site. I'd suggest reading some of his articles. They're always pretty funny and he often makes very good points.
Edited by Solid Gally, Aug 6 2010, 03:47:42 PM.
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Weedle_McHairybug
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Solid Gally
Aug 6 2010, 03:44:53 PM
MrDaseala
Aug 4 2010, 01:40:27 PM
Weedle_McHairybug
Aug 3 2010, 11:51:05 PM
Quote:
 
^That is why I think that Gray Fox should be left alone for now.
The fact is, Portable Ops did nothing to Gray Fox's story other than make a completely disaster of it.
For random example, everybody here keeps mentioning the 'Mozambican War'.
But when you take a look at Portable Ops, its pretty impossible to add that to his story ark now (according to Portable Ops, Gray Fox's time in Mozambique happened before MPO).

Check that article out and you'll see what I mean.


There are actually two Mozambician wars. There was the Mozambician War of Independence, which is the one Portable Ops mentioned, and there was the Mozambician Civil War, which is the one Gray Fox mentioned in MG2. Other than time placements, Naked Snake explicitly mentioned that Gray Fox/Null killed some Government Agents with a single knife while in FREMILO, which would only have been possible if it was in the Mozambician War of Independence (as the war was to drive out the Portugese from Mozambique), and after the war, either FREMILO became the ruling body of Mozambique or there was never a ruling body, as shortly afterwards, the Mozambician Civil War happened, which is when RENAMO was formed.

Plus, Campbell mentioned that Null was a mess both physically and mentally, and hints that he may not be able to live a normal life after that, which may explain why he was participating a lot in wars.

Quote:
 
PW was made in an effort to undue to damage that PO did to the series,both from a story and reputation standpoint.


They would have had to remove MGS4 from the timeline as well in order to fix up problems that MPO caused, seeing how it included elements of MPO into its story, including The Boss being set up.
I want to see you discuss that with that Ravi Singh whoever-the-fuck he is.
If you're not familiar with the legendary Snake Soup, then you can't be all that familiar with MGS. <_<

EDIT: I say that half-joking btw. I'm not trying to sound (or be) elitist. But Snake Soup has always been pretty renowned for its humourous (yet intriguing and well written) articles. They've got a pretty huge forum over there, too (although their board rules are a little different to the rules here lol).

Ravi Singh is the guy who runs the site. I'd suggest reading some of his articles. They're always pretty funny and he often makes very good points.
I actually read some of his articles, and some of them didn't seem to connect.

For one thing, his previous article neglected to mention some facts in the account of what happened between Zero and Big Boss in MGS4 were oddly unaddressed or even outright contradicted or at the very least arguably so (such as the fact that Big Boss seemed unaware about Cipher's existance despite helping found them, and the intro for the game implying that Big Boss left the United States and never returned. Yes, I know that it was intended to be a direct sequel to Snake Eater, but they could have easily just stated briefly that he returned briefly to form a unit and later left again after disagreeing with his superiors, and not just say "After the ceremony, however, Snake disappeared." as if Big Boss left the country without ever returning by 1974.), and the article also failed to remember that Metal Gear Solid 4 itself also showed stills from MPO (by that, I mean the game itself, not the database).
Edited by Weedle_McHairybug, Aug 6 2010, 04:02:59 PM.
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Solid Gally
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Hey, I never said that the guy was right about everything, did I?
Quote:
 
For one thing, his previous article neglected to mention some facts in the account of what happened between Zero and Big Boss in MGS4 were oddly unaddressed or even outright contradicted or at the very least arguably so
Mate, PW was what neglected to address what we find out about Zero and Big Boss in MGS4.
(PW Spoiler:)
Spoiler: click to toggle
It was another retcon, in case you didn't notice.

Anyway this topic is about characters from MPO appearing in Peace Walker (or not appearing, in that case).
I merely linked somebody to a random article which echoed my sentiments about Gray Fox.
-Not Snake Soup, not Ravi Singh.

So if we can er.... get back on topic...?
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Weedle_McHairybug
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Solid Gally
Aug 6 2010, 04:18:38 PM
Hey, I never said that the guy was right about everything, did I?
Quote:
 
For one thing, his previous article neglected to mention some facts in the account of what happened between Zero and Big Boss in MGS4 were oddly unaddressed or even outright contradicted or at the very least arguably so
Mate, PW was what neglected to address what we find out about Zero and Big Boss in MGS4.
(PW Spoiler:)
Spoiler: click to toggle
It was another retcon, in case you didn't notice.

Anyway this topic is about characters from MPO appearing in Peace Walker (or not appearing, in that case).
I merely linked somebody to a random article which echoed my sentiments about Gray Fox.
-Not Snake Soup, not Ravi Singh.

So if we can er.... get back on topic...?
Except Big Boss didn't even recognize "Cipher" when Paz first mentioned it. Considering how Big Boss helped found The Patriots in the first place, you'd think that he'd at least have some idea of putting two and two together on who they were. I know I would just by deductive reasoning: Cipher sent an agent to take back ZEKE with the intention of doing something in regards to me, they seem to know me pretty well. Let me guess, Patriots, right?

In Metal Gear Solid 4, EVA gave this exchange about how The Patriots were formed, and eventually what happened with Big Boss and Zero going their separate ways.

Quote:
 
Big Mama : ...It was what drove us
to create this organization - to be closer to that spirit.
Zero decided that in order to lead the people, we needed a
special kind of icon. So we turned to Big Boss, the last son
of The Boss. He shared more of her life than anyone else. It
was Big Boss, the true heir to her legacy, who was best
suited to play this role.


[The scene shifts back to Snake and Big Mama inside the church. They are now
shown to be standing at the front of the church, in front of the alter.]


Big Mama : Zero elevated Big Boss - the hero who saved the world - to
the status of an idol. The truth behind Big Boss became
riddled with exaggeration, misrepresentation, and outright
lies. Zero disseminated these stories among the masses and
gathered the rich and powerful to his banner. Every era
needs its symbols to control the people... Whether it be the
Stars and Stripes... Or the Hammer and Sickle.


[The scene changes again to show more art images detailing Big Mama's story.]


Big Mama : As the times and currents of politics changed, so too did
Zero. Eventually, he became a prisoner of his own lust for
power... Sparking friction between him and Big Boss, who
resented playing the puppet. With Big Boss drifting away,
Zero realized he would need insurance. Something that would
perpetuate the existence of Big Boss, their organization's
icon. And so, Zero secretly embarked on a new project: Les
Enfants Terribles. Its goal was to create a clone of Big
Boss, the ultimate soldier. The project was led by Dr.
Clark, known at the time as Para-Medic. After dozens of
failures, they finally - miraculously... Succeeded in
producing a fertilized egg. The egg used in the successful
in vitro fertilization came from Dr. Clark's assistant... A
heathly Japanese woman.


[The voice of Vulcan Raven from Shadow Moses fills Snake's mind.]


Vulcan Raven : Blood from the East flows within your veins....


Big Mama : "Give birth to Big Boss." To realize this, I asked to serve
as the surrogate mother... And was more than happy to carry
you in my womb. I loved him. Nine months later, I gave birth
to two Big Bosses... You, and Liquid. It didn't matter that
you were clones, or that they had manipulated your DNA. You
were born the same way as any other normal child... From
your mother's womb. But Les Enfants Terribles proved to be
the final straw for Zero and Big Boss. Determined to oppose
Zero and his plans, Big Boss broke away from the Patriots.
He left the States, created his own mercenary company, and
drifted around the world.


But yeah, you're right, we should stop and go back on topic.
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