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Slavery; THAT'S RACIST
Topic Started: May 13 2014, 08:09:00 PM (2,334 Views)
d3m01iti0n
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^^^what this guy said. In the NES games, and several references after, everybody who know him in his BB/Outer Heaven persona thought he was a great guy. Remember all the children he took care off, helping the refugees after the bombings, etc? He was made out to be a terrorist by the Patriots but his main purpose was to fight war where it was needed not to become a terrorist himself. Think of Philanthropy; Snake and Otacon were made out to be terrorists but we knew what they were really up to and the end justified the means. BB still has the same morals in PP but rather than building a soldier's paradise he is forming his army with the singular purpose of taking out Cipher and he's been doing that until he got cooked.

And who knows what happens between handing the diamonds off and him shooting? A guard could have walked in but leaving it vague left the trailer open for interpretation. I never once got the impression he shot the kids until I read opinions on this forum.
Edited by d3m01iti0n, May 14 2014, 12:43:54 PM.
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The Member Formerly Known as <JuGGaLo-UnIt>
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Black Adder
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The world would be better without Snakes.
The problem with rescuing those orphans is that HE is the reason they're orphans in the first place, at least in MG2. He's not particularly a nice guy. He starts wars in countries, kills off people, creates orphans out of children, and then raises them within his own base to feed back onto the battlefield. He's not really helping these kids, he's brainwashing them.

[edit] I never thought he shot the kids either by the way, it's so blatantly obvious the trailer is cut and edited to make us believe that. If anything he's shooting at an enemy, it's a completely different scene, or he's told the kids to stand back and shot the lock off of the door.
Edited by Black Adder, May 14 2014, 03:23:58 PM.
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Heisenberg
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Ugh, not this argument again. Sauron, tell everyone why Big Boss is a hot mess rather than a misunderstood villain.
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Kelesis
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"Mankind will come together, reunited between these fluffy buns."
Inspector_Swag
May 14 2014, 04:03:24 PM
Ugh, not this argument again. Sauron, tell everyone why Big Boss is a hot mess rather than a misunderstood villain.
Is there a user named Sauron or are you literally asking The Dark Lord himself to post on the forums?

Because I'm pretty sure his wifi disconnected during the destruction of Mount Doom.
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MGS4 - "Warm Shadow"The Phantom Pain - "Nine Years"
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Heisenberg
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Haha, I mean Max Payne.
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_se7en_
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Kelesishiro
May 14 2014, 04:23:23 PM
Inspector_Swag
May 14 2014, 04:03:24 PM
Ugh, not this argument again. Sauron, tell everyone why Big Boss is a hot mess rather than a misunderstood villain.
Is there a user named Sauron or are you literally asking The Dark Lord himself to post on the forums?

Because I'm pretty sure his wifi disconnected during the destruction of Mount Doom.
epic comment man :D
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BatouYukinawa
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It's all about the concept of evil. Are people truly evil, or is evil merely a misinterpretations of ones desires/ambitions, or even their environment. We often probably ask ourselves how parts of Africa have
child soldiers at all. How can such innocence slay countless others with such hatred. Certainly this is evil
right? I think the real question is how can our environment, and our sense of pure desperation
mold us into such atrocious beings. No one is born with these thoughts/motives/feelings of utter bigotry.
It is a process of indoctrination, and manipulation that creates "evil". It is not innate in any human.

Big Boss is not a villain. He simply has a different view on how to make a better world. This in itself
does not make him a protagonist, nor a villain. If BB was to be categorized he would be more an anti-hero.
His motivations are purely for his own benefit, however he does not go out of his way to make
unethical and immoral decisions unless he is pushed to do so. He tries to be a good person if he can,
but unlike a hero, he will kill, or do whatever it takes to reach his goal.
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Heisenberg
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Ok, I'm not going to go as in-depth as I have in the past, but I'll simply say this:

You're looking at shades of gray. All MGS villains besides shitty Volgin had logical, plausible reasoning behind their actions. But, that does not negate that they were villains. Liquid wanted to save his family, yet he was willing to launch a nuke. Solidus wanted to recapture freedom, but at the expense of killing innocent people. That's putting it in a simplistic form. You can spout philosophies and justifications all you want, but it doesn't alter them doing horrible things to achieve their goals.

Big Boss sure as hell has his reasonings. But there are certainly no excuses for harboring child soldiers, flaming war, etc. Don't get caught up in the areas of gray.
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TheDankSnake
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Well put inspector
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Snake, history will never know what she did. No one will ever learn the truth. Her story, her debriefing... will endure only in your heart. Everything she did, she did for her country. She sacrificed her life and her honor for her native land. She was a real hero. She was a true patriot. - EVA
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Rogue Agent
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Well said. Snake has his reasonings but it's still messed up and he's psycho. I mean, he wants eternal war so soldiers always have a place in war. Without war and stuff, mercenaries wouldn't find much work. I mean, look how he manipulates child soldiers too.
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I <3 TOKUGAWA HEAVY INDUSTRIES - credit goes to Tollhouse and Snake Eater
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Pawn
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"Inspector_Swag"
 
You're looking at shades of gray. All MGS villains besides shitty Volgin had logical, plausible reasoning behind their actions. But, that does not negate that they were villains. Liquid wanted to save his family, yet he was willing to launch a nuke. Solidus wanted to recapture freedom, but at the expense of killing innocent people. That's putting it in a simplistic form. You can spout philosophies and justifications all you want, but it doesn't alter them doing horrible things to achieve their goals.


Volgin's reasons were just as plausible as Solidus and Liquid's. He wanted to make sure Russia was the dominant superpower on Earth, and no amount of genuine sadism is going to change it, especially during the Cold War era where nations conducted all sorts of spy operations for the purpose of staying on top. Volgin was just extremely blatant and unashamed of his evil tendencies.

Also, Solidus didn't plan on killing any innocent people. The purified hydrogen bomb was set to be a high-altitude detonation that would cause an electromagnetic pulse great enough to short-circuit Manhattan's power grid. The explosion itself wouldn't have touched anybody as it would have gone off high in the atmosphere, thus no one would have died, and if it did kill anybody then he would have truly been a villain.

Also, Volgin isn't a shitty villain, in fact he was the closest MGS ever got to having an actual straight-up evil villain without all the complicated backstory and motivations. He was just a sadistic colonel who wanted to put his country on top.

Also: war isn't evil.
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Heisenberg
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Wrong and wrong. I never specifically said Solidus wanted to kill with the EMP. He killed Many people, directly or indirectly. Remember Africa? Killing parents to take their children and make them child soldiers (sound familiar ^_^ )...Solidus is far from innocent.

Secondly, Volgin isn't remotely in the same ballpark as the other villains. This is the only time Kojima attempted a villain lacking ideologies. A villain that was evil just to watch the world burn. Needless to say, it failed. He is a mere Saturday cartoon villain. He's far from compelling or intriguing. He isn't well established. He's simply there just to be evil.
Edited by Heisenberg, May 15 2014, 01:00:18 AM.
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Pawn
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Wrong and wrong. I never specifically said Solidus wanted to kill with the EMP. He killed Many people, directly or indirectly. Remember Africa? Killing parents to take their children and make them child soldiers (sound familiar ^_^ )...Solidus is far from innocent.


It sounds like you were arguing how a man can have righteous goals while still committing unjustified acts of evil and then inserted Africa into the mix which is totally irrelevant to his plans for destroying the Patriots. The two events are in no way connected. Try not to weasel your way out of your own fuck up again. It's annoying.

Solidus killing the parents of innocent children so that he could turn them into child soldiers has no connection to Solidus' desire to destroy the Patriots. We all know Solidus caused the Shadow Moses incident, pissed off the Patriots and they wanted him dead for doing so. In plotting his revenge, he discovered more about them, such as their unethical methods of controlling society as a means of providing himself with a more popular ("just") reason for wanting to take them down. If anything he just used that reason as an excuse and isn't really an anti-hero at all.

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A villain that was evil just to watch the world burn.


Volgin does not = the Joker. Stop giving him imaginary traits to justify your dislike of a character where the was never a need to mention your disliking of him to begin with, let alone use him as an erroneous exception to the list of characters "who do bad for the sake of good". Volgin was a Russian patriot, albeit a sadistic one, and he's not the least bit cartoonish.

If you want to start listing off "cartoonish" characters why don't you go look at Johnny, or hell, the ENTIRE COBRA UNIT.

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He's simply there just to be evil.


Wrong. He's there to serve as an example of a man who fights for his country, someone who is ultimately just a tool to be used and thrown away, which is why he didn't live passed the end of MGS3. His sadistic traits are totally irrelevant to his archetypal role. Besides, I'd rather have Volgin, a man who tells the truth, than Liquid or Solidus who are just two brats.

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Secondly, Volgin isn't remotely in the same ballpark as the other villains.


Your post consisted of listing off villains from other MGS games who had "plausible and logical reasons". Patriotism is just as logical and plausible reason as any and is far more believable, when you take into account that Liquid's base motivations for his actions consist of sibling jealousy toward Solid Snake based on a fact he was TOTALLY wrong about because he's an insecure little bitch, and Solidus' base motivations for his actions ultimately being to keep himself from being killed by the Patriots because the little moron overstepped his boundaries.

Neither of those characters are true anti-heroes and their "just" reasons for doing what they did are two big piles of horse shit. The reason why Volgin's actions are more plausible is because he had no prior history, no murky dealings with other organizations he secretly worked for or anything else; he was an uncomplicated man with an uncomplicated history - thus his actions are plausible as they so-happen to fall in line with the Cold War agenda of all the other nations - stay on top.

So yeah. Solidus and Liquid were ultimately just a couple of morons without any real ideals. They fabricated their ideas in an effort to make themselves feel like they were justified in their actions and thus - good people, which is far from reality. All three clones, Solid, Liquid, and Solidus may have been bastards in their own ways, but at least Solid wasn't a fucking bastard, and it's that very reason why he got to die peacefully at the end of MGS4. He's actually a good guy just like his old man, even if that old man stumbled along his way through life. Solidus and Liquid are not good men and Big Boss probably knew that.
Edited by Pawn, May 15 2014, 01:46:26 AM.
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Bladewolf
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kojima is incredible! how the fuck have i not seen that?!
I feel this whole race and possible slavery is going to be treated in the same way Bioshock Infinite did, a total superficial way that only serve as a setting for the game.
Karma's a bitch, huh? Fucking hack
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Pawn
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Agreed. It will serve as the back-drop and help to form the reality that is this new world Big Boss will soon become apart of. It will not be relevant to the main plot but it'll help to flesh out the evil world that Big Boss is now entering to achieve his goal of revenge against Major Zero by providing other examples of evil.

As Kaz said...they are going into Hell and Hell is an all-too-human place.
Edited by Pawn, May 15 2014, 01:50:34 AM.
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BatouYukinawa
Light Infantry
My point was that villains are archetypes and nothing more for a novel or a story. In the real world,
villains do not exist. BB was not a villain, nor was Solid Snake a hero. He was called a hero by others
who shared his views. However, BB was also idolized and revered a hero by people as well.
It's all about perspective.

America dropped two A-bombs in Japan. Of course Japan looked at us as villains, yet we weren't.
We were trying to stop a World War, and given the ideology of Japan at the time; there was honestly
no other way. It was a horrible thing America had to do, but it was done for a greater good. All historians
would agree that Japan would have suffered ten fold if we invaded their country. People had to die regardless.

Volgin was a villain. He was not a realistic character. I guess you can analyze something to death and somehow find meaning from a character, but lol no, that dude was a James Bond villain through and through haha. Wasn't that Kojima's intent? I always thought so. The Cobra unit, seemed ridiculous like the Bond henchmen anyway.
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Bladewolf
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kojima is incredible! how the fuck have i not seen that?!
So Hitler wasnt a ''villian'' or a ''bad guy'', it was just propanganda from the other side?

Last time i checked, Solid Snake dosent need to farm out child soldiers and create a nuclear superpower nation to fight and destroy the Patriots.

Now you mention it, even with all his drama angst, Big Boss never really did a dent to the Patriots as a whole.
Edited by Bladewolf, May 15 2014, 07:50:35 PM.
Karma's a bitch, huh? Fucking hack
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bigbossbalrog
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Bladewolf
May 15 2014, 07:49:13 PM
So Hitler wasnt a ''villian'' or a ''bad guy'', it was just propanganda from the other side?

Last time i checked, Solid Snake dosent need to farm out child soldiers and create a nuclear superpower nation to fight and destroy the Patriots.

Now you mention it, even with all his drama angst, Big Boss never really did a dent to the Patriots as a whole.
No it was Revolver Ocelot (The man forever loyal to Big Boss) who succeeded in doing it. The Villian did the dirty work, while Solid Snake (Who was manipulated by everyone) got the credit
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Bladewolf
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kojima is incredible! how the fuck have i not seen that?!
EEH it was Sunny going technically
Karma's a bitch, huh? Fucking hack
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bigbossbalrog
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Bladewolf
May 15 2014, 08:47:06 PM
EEH it was Sunny going technically
..And sunny did nothing in the long run. It still became an anarchic wasteland of an earth with PMC'S basically in charge.

Big Boss and Revolver Ocelots dream of a world free from the patriots was in the end, relized by Ocelot's hard work and sacrifice. Not Solid Snake. (Who was basically fighting for the patriots unknowingly most of the games.)
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