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Ishmael - Character Thread; All things Ishmael
Topic Started: Apr 8 2014, 02:21:30 AM (1,569 Views)
Risev
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Got it Memeorized?
The story is going to be heavily inspired by Moby Dick. The main characters in Moby Dick are called Ahab and Ishmael
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Trigsby
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Don't fight it.
I did a lil Google search and Ahab was "a king of Israel in the ninth century b.c". Probs Completely irrelevant but Big Boss is kind of a king right..? :roll:
Edited by Trigsby, May 14 2014, 06:05:28 PM.
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Risev
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Got it Memeorized?
Trigsby
May 14 2014, 06:05:09 PM
I did a lil Google search and Ahab was "a king of Israel in the ninth century b.c". Probs Completely irrelevant but Big Boss is kind of a king right..? :roll:
As I said, the story of The Phantom Pain is taking inspiration from Moby Dick. The main character of that book is called Ahab. It's as simple as that
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Trigsby
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Don't fight it.
I'll get my coat.
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Kulbelbolka
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As I mentioned before, name Ishmael is a triple reference:
1) Moby Dick
2) Bible
3) Long Way Gone

Ahab is a double reference to:
1) Moby Dick
2) Bible

David is double reference to:
1) Name of David Hayter
2) Bible

Eli is reference to Bible at minimum.

Avi Arad said that MGSV has a story of biblical proportions. It's not just about it gigantic and potentially most important game of decade, it's about it's cultural influences and references.

My theory stays the same: Ishmael is not hallucination, he is political decoy for Big Boss whose purpose is to impersonate Big Boss to protect him. But his is still unknown. I have my guessings, but nobody cares anyway, so I'll save it for my own article for different resource.
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Black Adder
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The world would be better without Snakes.
Risev
May 14 2014, 04:37:23 PM
Based on that detail? Not at all. The soldier held his shoulder yes, but he didn't look to be in pain at all. So it wouldn't make sense for such a minor thing to still have such an effect on him 9 years later.
It isn't a matter of him "being in pain". It's either a red herring, or symbolism of him being Ishmael. I wasn't implying the MSF soldier was in pain and would still be in pain with his shoulder 9 years later. Whose to say he's even holding his shoulder because he's in pain? It's just odd that an MSF soldier on the same chopper that Big Boss was on, the same one that crashed, would be sitting in the same exact stance we see Ishmael come to Big Boss in...

genjy
May 3 2014, 08:57:30 PM
DMFox
May 1 2014, 09:55:53 PM
DaPhantomSnake
May 1 2014, 09:52:39 PM
Ok here's my crazy Outlandish preposterous conspiracy theory!!! The Bandaged Man is Big Boss And the person that is waking from the coma is a Man named Ishmael. Who is in fact a clone of Big Boss. The Genome Soldier Clone. The first of the genome soldiers that would later be used during the shadow Moses incident. And I think Big Boss need him alive so he can form the basis of Big Boss's new unit the Diamond Dogs. We play the entire game as Ishmael. The forgotten clone!!!!! And Ground Zeroes is a virtual reality simulation that was used to make Ishmael believe he was Big Boss meanwhile everybody thinks Ishmael is the real big boss when in fact he is just a clone and the Real Big Boss is in the shadows looking for a way to kill Zero. I really wouldn't put it past kojima to do something this outrageous considering he replaced snake with raiden in mgs2. Hopefully I'm wrong about it but something tells me we are not going to be playing as Big Boss in TPP
Body double, VR theory...

You really want a game about the downfall of BB to be a VR simulation experienced by someone else? A "random clone" who is of no importance to the story?

This is meant to be how BB falls to "the dark side". And you want that to be the cause of someone elses actions? not BB's own psychological downfall? The WHOLE point of the game?
I can't say I agree with the whole body double theory, but what irks me is that body double theory detractors would often mention that MGSV is supposed to be some kind of "the fall of Big Boss" game.

Why does Big Boss have to become evil? Why can't we have both good Big Boss and bad Big Boss? The bad Big Boss in MG1 and MG2 could be a clone who has been brainwashed to think he is Big Boss. It's not out of the question in terms of story-telling and what's possible in the MG universe.

Has Hideo made some kind of promise that he is going to turn John/Jack into an evil MF?
I have come to believe, ever since playing MGS4, that Solidus is the reason Big Boss gets such a horrible name. Big Mama even says that The Patriots sullied Big Boss' good image in some way, most likely because he refused to rejoin them. Solidus could very easily could have been used to destroy Big Boss' image. Solidus was ruthless in Liberia, and throughout his military experiences. He trained child soldiers. Big Boss was AGAINST taking Chico in at first; Chico had to beg. Yet we see Solidus openly taking in child soldiers, something he probably thinks nothing of considering he himself is a teenager when he begins his Small Boy Unit.

This is a very unpopular idea though and no one here likes it because they're positive that Big Boss has to become evil, which is the most likely option because Kojima said this game is about "Snake's downfall into becoming the evil Big Boss" or something along those lines. The thing is though, Snake is a very vague name considering we have 4 different Snakes to choose from, and only two of them ever have anything to do with Big Boss: The real Big Boss, and Solidus who is an exact clone of Big Boss and wishes to surpass him.

Just my thoughts. Not saying anything is "concrete" or factual or that anyone is wrong.
Edited by Black Adder, May 15 2014, 04:03:38 AM.
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Black Adder
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... :ninja:
Edited by Black Adder, May 15 2014, 04:03:31 AM.
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B3nny56
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Kulbelbolka
May 15 2014, 03:32:49 AM


David is double reference to:
1) Name of David Bowman from 2001:A Space Odyssey, which contrasts with Hal Emmerich
2) Bible
Just a little correction here; pretty sure it's been stated somewhere that Snake being voiced by David Hayter and having the first name "David" is just a coincidence.
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ADAMska87
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yeah ishmeal calls BB Ahab because of his lost limb like cpt.Ahab from moby Dick and he is gonna get revenge..plus the whole flaming wale ( even though its not the same wale)
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ADAMska87
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Gaseous-Snake
May 14 2014, 04:03:15 PM
ADAMska87
May 13 2014, 06:22:34 AM
Gaseous-Snake
May 12 2014, 04:28:55 PM
ADAMska87
May 12 2014, 09:13:48 AM
I just noticed the guy ishmael calls BB Ahab right before he gets him up...I thought he said something else this whole time
What did you think he said??
Hahh I've watched these freaking trialers and vids a shit load of times and the whole time I thought he said " ok I have time to go" go listen to it that way and it really does sound like that and is easy to mix up
I doesn't make sense though :huh:
well it makes sense if you look at it this way...I though Ishmeal was either talking on a cell phone (but now I think about it..it was the 80's and not possible) or talking out the window to someone and says "ok I have time to go" them grabs Big Boss to leave...
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XOFYARG
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It's frank jaeger
My milkshake is better than yours
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TheDankSnake
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Colonel Kush
I agree with you black adder i think BBs name was slandered in some way because in mgs4 we are led to think of BB as a protagonist and like kojima said some parts in the first too MGs would be reconed so whos to say that aspect os altered as well
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Snake, history will never know what she did. No one will ever learn the truth. Her story, her debriefing... will endure only in your heart. Everything she did, she did for her country. She sacrificed her life and her honor for her native land. She was a real hero. She was a true patriot. - EVA
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TheDankSnake
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Colonel Kush
You know what else makes me think ishamel is a hallucination is that he makes the decision to take the stairs but why would any sensible person take someone in BBs condition down the stairs... There is the argument that the elevator could be dangerous (which it was) but also if you think about snake is a legendary soldier and defintitely has pushed himself to the limits when training without a doubt so maybe his subconscious is forcing him to push his limits there. Just something i thought of
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Snake, history will never know what she did. No one will ever learn the truth. Her story, her debriefing... will endure only in your heart. Everything she did, she did for her country. She sacrificed her life and her honor for her native land. She was a real hero. She was a true patriot. - EVA
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Old Liquid
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So just for the heck of it I selected the characters that people has most suspicioun of being Ishmael. Note that I took conspiracy theories and pros and cons that people have previously expressed.

Primary suspects for being Ishmael.

The Hallucination Theory - (From Fox Two Phantoms Were Born)

Why it is - He has the same voice actor as Snake. Snakes shadow recembles him. He gets gunned down, but then seems to be standing near a door later. He never physicly helps Snake. He dissapears before or after Ocelot appears (like a ghost) He is not shown anywhere but in the hospital section. Hes just a cause of Snakes PTSD.

Why its not - Who does Miller refer to when lying on the hospital beds if only Snake can see him?

Solidus - ( A Clone Forced To Act As Another)

Why it is - He has the same voice actor as Snake. Seen as they`re clones this will make sense.
This might be some sort of clone facility. Even though he is 12 his accelerated aging has made him look like he`s in his 20s-30s.

Why its not - He would be around 12 and his accelerated aging hasnt kicked in yet.

Gray Fox - ( A Man Who`s Loyal to His Nation)

Why it is - He will be around that age in this time period. Saving Snake will make him one of his most trusted liutenants for watching over him for 9 years. His ears and nose is cut off, thats why he has those bandages.

Why its not - Gray Fox is half white. Why would he have the same voice actor as Snake?

Chico ( A Man Thirsting For Revenge)

Why it is - Chico would be around that age. He was in the same helicopter crash as Snake and Miller. The bandages may be there for the damage he took after the explosion.

Why its not - Chico doesnt have the accent nor Kiefer Sutherland as his voice. Chico is Quite.

The Medic ( A Man Who.. He.. He sounds like Kiefer...)

Why it is - Kiefer Sutherland voices him, only with a lower pitch. (to avoid spoilers). His face is covered the whole time in GZ. His face wounds perfectly ties in with the Paz explotion.

Why its not - hes to minor of a character to play such an integral part

Decoy Octopuss ( A Man Who is Everyone At the Same Time)

Why it is - He had his nose and ears cut off so that explains the bandages. He could mess with his vocal cords and disguise himself as anyone. Hes a body double for Snake.

Why its not - it is...
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Eagle
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Old Liquid
May 17 2014, 07:34:50 PM
So just for the heck of it I selected the characters that people has most suspicioun of being Ishmael. Note that I took conspiracy theories and pros and cons that people have previously expressed.

Primary suspects for being Ishmael.

The Hallucination Theory - (From Fox Two Phantoms Were Born)

Why it is - He has the same voice actor as Snake. Snakes shadow recembles him. He gets gunned down, but then seems to be standing near a door later. He never physicly helps Snake. He dissapears before or after Ocelot appears (like a ghost) He is not shown anywhere but in the hospital section. Hes just a cause of Snakes PTSD.

Why its not - Who does Miller refer to when lying on the hospital beds if only Snake can see him?

Solidus - ( A Clone Forced To Act As Another)

Why it is - He has the same voice actor as Snake. Seen as they`re clones this will make sense.
This might be some sort of clone facility. Even though he is 12 his accelerated aging has made him look like he`s in his 20s-30s.

Why its not - He would be around 12 and his accelerated aging hasnt kicked in yet.

Gray Fox - ( A Man Who`s Loyal to His Nation)

Why it is - He will be around that age in this time period. Saving Snake will make him one of his most trusted liutenants for watching over him for 9 years. His ears and nose is cut off, thats why he has those bandages.

Why its not - Gray Fox is half white. Why would he have the same voice actor as Snake?

Chico ( A Man Thirsting For Revenge)

Why it is - Chico would be around that age. He was in the same helicopter crash as Snake and Miller. The bandages may be there for the damage he took after the explosion.

Why its not - Chico doesnt have the accent nor Kiefer Sutherland as his voice. Chico is Quite.

The Medic ( A Man Who.. He.. He sounds like Kiefer...)

Why it is - Kiefer Sutherland voices him, only with a lower pitch. (to avoid spoilers). His face is covered the whole time in GZ. His face wounds perfectly ties in with the Paz explotion.

Why its not - hes to minor of a character to play such an integral part

Decoy Octopuss ( A Man Who is Everyone At the Same Time)

Why it is - He had his nose and ears cut off so that explains the bandages. He could mess with his vocal cords and disguise himself as anyone. Hes a body double for Snake.

Why its not - it is...
It''s most likely the Medic, Decoy Octopus, or a Hallucination. Besides, the Medic hasn't had his face shown. There has to be a reason for that.
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TheDankSnake
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Colonel Kush
You cant make the same argument for gray fox and chico that they would be around the same age because they are so different in age range just doesnt make sense for it to be gray fo because of that and he was fighting in a civil war (forget which one at the moment)
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Snake, history will never know what she did. No one will ever learn the truth. Her story, her debriefing... will endure only in your heart. Everything she did, she did for her country. She sacrificed her life and her honor for her native land. She was a real hero. She was a true patriot. - EVA
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warrior2014
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Old Liquid, I like your pros and cons, but I don't get one con for the Frank Jaeger theory, when you say he is half white? The man in bandages looks pretty white to me?
Also, maybe the medic IS decoy octopus.
Edited by warrior2014, May 17 2014, 09:25:03 PM.
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Old Liquid
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TheDankSnake
May 17 2014, 08:53:51 PM
You cant make the same argument for gray fox and chico that they would be around the same age because they are so different in age range just doesnt make sense for it to be gray fo because of that and he was fighting in a civil war (forget which one at the moment)
Well its pretty hard to distinguish a man with badages around his face, but you cant give a specific age on him. Although he looks like he could be in his 20s-30s. Maby even 40s. Gray Fox was a teen in PO and Chico around 11. They are about 10 years in age difference. Gray Fox born sometime in the 50s and Chico in 1962.


Warrior2014 - As I said in the top of my post. I have taken arguments other people have prevously made.
And being half white means he has black/brown skin and facial properties.
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hstrip
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Ishmael is voiced by Sutherland.
Snake is voiced by Sutherland.

As Snake is waking up from his coma he's still in 'half' a dream state. That's why he sees Ishmael, Volgen, Giant Whales, etc. He's trying to escape and tripping balls at the same time. To me that's as clear as day.


Also, it's common to have hallucinations after a coma--

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Is_it_possible_to_have_hallucinations_after_a_coma?#slide=2

https://ca.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080112180309AAvMGCJ

edit: WOW I just spent too much time in a coma forum reading about peoples horrible experiences… A lot have very vivid nightmares- some involving the hospital or something similar while in a coma. Even people fighting in the hospital came up quite a bit. Very scary stuff. After reading all this I'm not sure XOF attacks Snake in the hospital at all… The first chapter could all be 'coma dream'….
Edited by hstrip, May 18 2014, 01:51:12 AM.
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TheDankSnake
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Hes definitely not a teen in PO he looks to be in his early 20s and yeah sometime in the 50s so thats a 10 year span neither helping yours or my argument making that point moot and also saying ishmael is from 20-40 also leaves the reasoning for who it is because of his age moot as well
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Snake, history will never know what she did. No one will ever learn the truth. Her story, her debriefing... will endure only in your heart. Everything she did, she did for her country. She sacrificed her life and her honor for her native land. She was a real hero. She was a true patriot. - EVA
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