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Protagonist and player relationship in The Phantom Pain; Some thoughts after last trailer
Topic Started: Jun 11 2014, 02:15:02 AM (2,179 Views)
Agent
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JenniferNova
Jun 11 2014, 04:42:57 AM
Oh, so you play as the villain in The Last of Us?

That's great, because -- you know... some of us haven't finished it yet.

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Thanks.
shit sorry. :X:
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Fascist Weasel
"But I haven't lost my skull.."
MGSV should challenge you. You should be forced to do things you don't want to do. Big Boss should formulate plans on the fly and it is our job to exact these terrible things. Kojima wants to elevate the medium and challenging the players morals and comfort zone is the way to do it.
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Hakola
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Heavily-Armed Trooper
Agent
Jun 11 2014, 12:39:40 PM
JenniferNova
Jun 11 2014, 04:42:57 AM
Oh, so you play as the villain in The Last of Us?

That's great, because -- you know... some of us haven't finished it yet.

Posted Image

Thanks.
shit sorry. :X:
Eh, it's okay.

I wasn't exactly in my best mood when I read it, so that's reflected in my post.

And it's a games forum. Spoilers will happen if I choose to read about speculations and stuff.
"Who the hell are you!?"
"Hurt me, Snake! HURT ME MORE!"
"GRAY FOX!"
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Novitch
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Knight
JenniferNova
Jun 11 2014, 04:42:57 AM
Oh, so you play as the villain in The Last of Us?

That's great, because -- you know... some of us haven't finished it yet.

Posted Image

Thanks.
Dont worry thats debatable

I dont see it that way
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_se7en_
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Hi-Tech Soldier
Switch
Jun 11 2014, 03:50:40 AM
It reminds me somewhat of the end of The Last Of Us, where...
Spoiler: click to toggle

Despite coming to know Joel as a likeable and generally moral character, I thought what he was doing was entirely wrong and constituted remarkably poor judgement. Nevertheless, I definitely think that being the person controlling his actions in that situation is an extremely effective way of provoking players into evaluating them and their morally questionable nature. We could not stop Joel from doing what he was doing and, as the player, we could not avoid directly controlling him as he did what he did.
With Big Boss in TPP, I expect Kojima is trying to achieve a similar result, and I'm all the more glad for it. I'd argue that there's no better way to highlight the morally questionable nature of the protagonist's actions than by having us be in direct control of their execution. We've played as Big Boss as a naive soldier who was willing to die to serve and protect his country, we've played as him as he has become an esteemed war veteran and now we're going to be directly involved in the events that make others see him as a ruthless and widely feared tyrant -- what better way than this to highlight the mistakes he has made? :)
exactly! well said.

The reason that TLOU is one of my favourite games is because it played with my emotions- from sadness to anger,etc- and in a way, it made me detach from the protagonist but i never felt yself lost or like i didn't understand why he did certain things. That moment made the game even better, because it kept me thinking about it...

To me seeing BB turn into the villain we know of will hurt me but it will make the game much more intense so i totally disagree with you.
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Novitch
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Knight
MGSV its supposed to sell you that as a player

I do think it was a mistake to reveal the player that skully was behind the attack, while bb does not know. That harms the bond between player and character


I myself am pretty pissed :P so I kinda dont worry(all those painfull grinded hrs in PW destroyed by Skully!!!!(but bb think it was cypher instead urgh))

But bb and the player dont like cypher anyways tho
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Bladewolf
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kojima is incredible! how the fuck have i not seen that?!
janeslastresort
Jun 11 2014, 12:37:03 PM
JenniferNova
Jun 11 2014, 04:42:57 AM
Oh, so you play as the villain in The Last of Us?

That's great, because -- you know... some of us haven't finished it yet.

Posted Image

Thanks.
Don't expect people to pussyfoot around spoilers when the game is a year old.
That game is just a year old game jackass, is not old.
Karma's a bitch, huh? Fucking hack
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ZetsubouNoNnoitra
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I will always be with you
Bladewolf
Jun 11 2014, 02:42:50 PM
janeslastresort
Jun 11 2014, 12:37:03 PM
JenniferNova
Jun 11 2014, 04:42:57 AM
Oh, so you play as the villain in The Last of Us?

That's great, because -- you know... some of us haven't finished it yet.

Posted Image

Thanks.
Don't expect people to pussyfoot around spoilers when the game is a year old.
That game is just a year old game jackass, is not old.
I like how you are saying that while the devs themselves spoiled a lot in their remastered trailer assuming that most of the people have played it already :P

Plus considering Joel as a bad guy is totally subjective cause:

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"Boss... you say there's only room for one Snake... no... the world is better off... without Snakes..."
Big Boss. 2014.
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The Baneposter
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Only me

Irrelevant what we would have done, its still the wrong decision and its why the ending was brilliant. It was unapologetic and didn't try to BS.
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ZetsubouNoNnoitra
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I will always be with you
Max Payne
Jun 11 2014, 03:07:52 PM
Irrelevant what we would have done, its still the wrong decision and its why the ending was brilliant. It was unapologetic and didn't try to BS.
you may have point but it does not make him the villain of the game!!

Spoiler: click to toggle
Edited by ZetsubouNoNnoitra, Jun 11 2014, 03:57:44 PM.
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"Boss... you say there's only room for one Snake... no... the world is better off... without Snakes..."
Big Boss. 2014.
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Switch
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Max Payne
Jun 11 2014, 03:07:52 PM
Irrelevant what we would have done, its still the wrong decision and its why the ending was brilliant. It was unapologetic and didn't try to BS.
Absolutely - it was unapologetic and I think that was possibly the best thing about it. It never tried to make you believe that he was in the right and this was only enhanced by...
Spoiler: click to toggle

It absolutely made the experience better and experiencing a disconnect with Joel was never an issue.

I don't expect MGSV's storytelling to be on par with that of TLoU, which I adore and can't think of a single criticism for, but I'd love for it to take steps towards achieving some of what TLoU did. :)
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Thermals!
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=]
Bladewolf
Jun 11 2014, 02:42:50 PM
janeslastresort
Jun 11 2014, 12:37:03 PM
JenniferNova
Jun 11 2014, 04:42:57 AM
Oh, so you play as the villain in The Last of Us?

That's great, because -- you know... some of us haven't finished it yet.

Posted Image

Thanks.
Don't expect people to pussyfoot around spoilers when the game is a year old.
That game is just a year old game jackass, is not old.
Who said it was an old game? Take your poverty reading comprehension skills elsewhere.
Edited by Thermals!, Jun 11 2014, 04:49:17 PM.
PEACE will come.
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hstrip
Jail Guard
Kulbelbolka
Jun 11 2014, 03:36:29 AM
Some people missing the point of my post. I'm not against Big Boss becoming a villain, I'm against tearing the ties with player. In other words - when the moment will come I must be 100% sure that there was no other way to make it different for Big Boss. For now, I see some things at the trailer that "my" Big Boss would never do, like he is not my avatar in game's world anymore.

But we'll wait and see, I guess.
Maybe you start out as "Punished Snake", with player in control like GZ. Shit hits the fan again. 'Punished' becomes 'Venom'. Miller bolts for FOXHOUND when Skullface joins. Time passes. Story takes over and then boom- You're Solid Snake training under Miller and eventually taking down Outer Heaven (that you helped create as Big Boss) like in original Metal Gear.
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Devil Boss
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Fast and Correct!
This is precisely what fascinates me most about this game, even more than the open world action. The fact that Big Boss is becoming the monster we all know he will be, and that we have to - have to - play as him. To play a villain, a real villain with his own past and reasons, would be a first in videogame storytelling. To have to play as him as he does horrible things, and be forced to play along, would be amazing.

What better way to see things from Big Boss' perspective? Maybe we would try to justify him at first, but as the game goes on, that's no longer possible and we should have to accept that he's beyond redemption. It would mirror the way other characters will see him as well; a hero and legend when the game begins, a monster when it ends.

In other words, Big Boss' fall will be felt firsthand, and that would be incredible. This is not the kind of game where you play as the hero who saves the world, or the antihero who does questionable things but remains good deep down, or even the game where the main character does morally grey things and leaves you thinking about it. In this game, you play a bloodlusted murderer who will stop at nothing - nothing - to get his way.

If the game actually delivers on this front, it will be unique. And it would make a sequel with Solid Snake all the more relevant, as you take down the tyrant you helped empower in the last game.
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RazorSnake
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Agent
EmmGeeEss
Jun 11 2014, 06:43:04 AM
The fact that we're going to be forced to do things that'll inevitably make us (perhaps too strong of a word, but it works if you apply it to the context of the game itself) hate Big Boss, and we are the ones that will be in control of these things, and will have to carry them out in order to proceed with the story, and will ultimately be our actions, is extremely appealing to me.

I have to ask: Why must we always have be able to sympathise with the villain when the very worst of them deserve no sympathy? Do people have sympathy for all the arsehole dictators of the world who rule with an unruly iron fist, cause nothing but political unrest and treat the citizens of their country like dirt? No. Do people have sympathy for serial killers and rapists? No. Do people have sympathy for those who harm others for nothing but their own sick pleasure? No. (I don't like to draw comparisons between the aforementioned unspeakable acts and crimes and a character in a video game, but in terms of their alignment, it works.)

Face it: Big Boss is becoming that Big Boss, and there ain't no way we're going to be able to sympathise with him. We're finally going to get to understand why people hated him so much and why he was considered evil. He isn't doing these things as an act of 'misguided will', or something like that. No, he's doing these things because he is fucking pissed, and he doesn't give a fuck. He is satisfying his bloodlust, doing whatever he wants, necessary or not.

Shit's gonna get real, and I am fucking pumped!

xx
Exactly. It's no surprise that he's gonna do bad things willingly. It's not like he's being forced to be but he's decided to respond to his pain in the wrong way. It's not just Patriot propaganda that makes him look like a dictator but his own actions too. I don't even think Patriot propaganda has a part because if they had spread propaganda how does it it help the whole messiah image they still tried to paint by declassifying Big Boss' file making the war criminal look like a war hero? I think his own actions, though he thinks it's ok paint him as a villain. Anakin Skywalker thought he was doing good because he was trying to gain power to save his wife. I found it hard to sympathize with him slaughtering kids and his own comrades though. Anakin was twisted thinking he was bringing peace and justice to the galaxy with his actions but his own actions painted him as a villain. Same thing with when Skywalker murdered the Sand ppl we may look at that as a good thing in the sense that their savages but to go as far as to slaughter the women and the kids because he thought it was right, doesn't paint him gray to me. I've seen villains always try to justify their actions.

I think we'll be able to sympathize with him in some instances but in some we'll be like damn was that necessary. He's bound to become the man he is in MG1 and 2. Even after nuclear weapons were coming to a halt around the world he still held one and the man said he can't imagine a world without war. He wanted war to continue even with signs of peace.
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The Baneposter
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Only me

This is definitely not the first time you play as a morally ambiguous or reprehensible video game character, especially so if you count games with choice involved, but that doesn't make the notion of seeing Big Boss end up, or how he ended up as the One Eyed Man from Metal Gear less exciting.
Zetsu@
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