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Where's the depth?
Topic Started: Jun 21 2014, 06:28:05 AM (4,445 Views)
Boxman108
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Light Infantry
Not many will listen seeing as any constructive criticism towards MGSV is seen as blasphemy but I'll post this anyway for those who aren't sheep to discuss.

So far, judging by Ground Zeroes, the recent 30 minute demo, and all the other trailers, these are what I've found to be missing or poor design choices:

-No health bar. No stamina, psyche or stress. No healing items other than the retardedly unecessary health spray(of which there is an infinite supply). MUCH faster regenerating health that also now is not hindered by low stamina, psyche or high stress. Because of all this, there is no longer much of a lasting punishment for messing up and being caught. There are no consumables to be conservative with, and you no longer need to manage any kind of battle high.
-Indefinite sprinting. Ties into the stamina issue. Considering the AI is awful and the most dangerous vehicles are incredibly slow, this will be very easily abused. Often in GZ I haven't even gone half the map when they call and say they've lost me lolz.
-Blind spots. Pretty much areas that I'm almost certain the programmers made that enemies CAN'T go into to search. GZ has more than a dozen so it might be an even bigger problem in TPP.
-Infinite mags in GZ, only to be replaced by the new and even more overpowered distraction. It replaces the knock, only it can be done anywhere even without a wall or other surface. Wtf?
-No camo index and thus seemingly only preset or purely cosmetic camos. In 4 octo camo was a bit dumb but it added a lot to both 3 and PW, to the point where designated hiding spots were not a necessity and you had to think a bit more creatively where or how to hide or sneak by.
-Dumb AI in general and very underequipped. The guards in 2 cleared rooms very thoroughly, and had stuff like riot shields and heavy armor in 2 and 3, not to mention dogs in 3 and gekkos and frogs in 4. May not have always been the brightest just standing in place or rushing me, but what matters most is they were more aggressive, not constantly hiding behind cover and just waiting for me to murder them with OP CQC.
-Both tagging and reflex, though they can be turned off. Tagging is necessary but overdone. I'd rather it be more akin to sonar and be shortened in range. Considering the logic behind it is Snake's sense alone, I don't find it at all logical that he could see someone through more than a few buildings more than a mile away regardless of how experienced he is.
-A bit more understandable as it's not common but fuel for vehicles would be nice. Granted it may be hard to get to some in the first place but in GZ once you get the APC there is very little that can stop you from going on a rampage. An alternative could be limited ammo.
-Lack of a substantial codec with long conversations with a cast of characters fleshing out the world. By extension we get even less lines from Snake, making the change in VA even more useless, and the lack of manual saving. Hate having to wait to reach some arbitrary autosave which also is quite inconsistent and buggy.

Those are the most prominent problems at least. Bullet drop, weather, time of day and shift changes have been the only promising features so far and are muddled by those listed above. Sure Mother Base stuff is nice but doesn't add much to what is primarily a stealth game. The only argument I've heard against is that "stamina isn't necessary in an open world game." If I wanted to play something simplistic, I'd have chosen Far Cry 3; what was interesting about MGSV at first was the prospect of playing a more open ended MGS, NOT an MGS themed open world game with dumbed down or omitted improvements from previous games in the series.
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Venture
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mfw dante calls me a cunt
eh
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Kelesis
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"Mankind will come together, reunited between these fluffy buns."
Not trying to be a jerk, but with all that critisism maybe MGSV just isn't for you? I mean, maybe they'll change some of those things but if they don't? Based on your post I just don't see the game working out the way you would like it to.
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Gun Animal
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There's a lot of depth, just not in the areas you're looking for like fucking around with camo and health kits. It seems the goal here is to give the player as much freedom as possible, rather than tie them down in all the ways you're suggesting.
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Tom Cruise
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Boxman108
Jun 21 2014, 06:28:05 AM

-No health bar. No stamina, psyche or stress. No healing items other than the retardedly unecessary health spray(of which there is an infinite supply). MUCH faster regenerating health that also now is not hindered by low stamina, psyche or high stress. Because of all this, there is no longer much of a lasting punishment for messing up and being caught. There are no consumables to be conservative with, and you no longer need to manage any kind of battle high.
-Indefinite sprinting. Ties into the stamina issue. Considering the AI is awful and the most dangerous vehicles are incredibly slow, this will be very easily abused. Often in GZ I haven't even gone half the map when they call and say they've lost me lolz.
-Blind spots. Pretty much areas that I'm almost certain the programmers made that enemies CAN'T go into to search. GZ has more than a dozen so it might be an even bigger problem in TPP.
-Infinite mags in GZ, only to be replaced by the new and even more overpowered distraction. It replaces the knock, only it can be done anywhere even without a wall or other surface. Wtf?
the only legit criticisms IMO. whens the last time you played mgs3, camo index is hella tedious. i agree infinite sprint is dumb, snakes sposeta be OLD
DEAD CELL 4 LIFE 4 EVER
R.I.P. GARY

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uncensored
Heavily-Armed Trooper
I'll agree with the codec as it's something I truly miss from the series. A health bar and healing item would def make the game a bit more difficult too
Other than that, I'll disagree with the rest. TPP is shaping up to be the best MGS game. But every game will have its flaws and wont be perfect
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Venture
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mfw dante calls me a cunt
Quote:
 
-No health bar. No stamina, psyche or stress.

Not a poor design decision, just something you prefer to be different. I thought it was odd at first but it works for me. The last time I felt worried about having rations or regenerative items was MGS1 maybe 2. After that, I either never needed them or had too many. Its not like that was an issue I was ever concerned about.
Quote:
 
-Indefinite sprinting.


valid point, being able to infinitely sprint sounds bad. But then again, if this game truly is vast and the landscape takes along time to traverse, I'm not opposed against it. I never really found myself sprinting a ridiculous length anyway. Game didnt really reward that. Sprinting out in the open in hard mode, gets you killed real quick so its not like I can just sprint away from their bullets or do serpentine patterns and CQC them. Also please address how CQC is overpowered. I really don't see how CQC has changed so dramatically that you consider it to be overpowered compared to say MGS4.

Quote:
 
-Blind spots.
I cant recall any "blindspots". Maybe on top of the roof through the door closest to the front grant into the admin building and inside the drainage channel,which im told they can throw grenades into. Other than that, where cant the AI go? And how significant are these blindspots, because im sure most people didnt run into them, realize they were a "blindspot" and take advantage of them like I guess you are doing.
Quote:
 
-Infinite mags in GZ, only to be replaced by the new and even more overpowered distraction. It replaces the knock, only it can be done anywhere even without a wall or other surface. Wtf?
As opposed to Big Boss picking up a rock next to him? or whistling? or any number of things he could do to distract an enemy without using a robot arm or infinite magazines? this is not a big deal and your just looking for something to whine about.
Quote:
 
-No camo index and thus seemingly only preset or purely cosmetic camos. In 4 octo camo was a bit dumb but it added a lot to both 3 and PW, to the point where designated hiding spots were not a necessity and you had to think a bit more creatively where or how to hide or sneak by.


what you want to change your camo all willy nilly whenever the hell you want so you blend in with whatever environment you happen to be in? Perhaps different camouflages work and there is no solid proof you cant choose what Big Boss is wearing but regardless, why do you need a percent telling you how well you blend in? You cant see with your own goddamn eyes?

Quote:
 
-Dumb AI in general and very underequipped. The guards in 2 cleared rooms very thoroughly, and had stuff like riot shields and heavy armor in 2 and 3, not to mention dogs in 3 and gekkos and frogs in 4. May not have always been the brightest just standing in place or rushing me, but what matters most is they were more aggressive, not constantly hiding behind cover and just waiting for me to murder them with OP CQC.


oh ya dumb AI, not in fucking riot gear and not standing out in the open. I dont think you've ever even played ground zeroes by the way you talk. AI is plenty of aggressive. They flank you, bound towards you, suppress you while others move. They never just sit there behind cover, maybe you are playing on a new mode meant for babies, so they don't shoot at you as often. what the hell do you want them to do? Put on a full body suit that impervious to bullets and charge at you with a minigun? Not to mention you are comparing AI in linear corridor maps to AI in an open world map.

Quote:
 
-Both tagging and reflex, though they can be turned off. Tagging is necessary but overdone. I'd rather it be more akin to sonar and be shortened in range. Considering the logic behind it is Snake's sense alone, I don't find it at all logical that he could see someone through more than a few buildings more than a mile away regardless of how experienced he is.



Your right, you can turn them off so why are you bitching about it.


Quote:
 
-A bit more understandable as it's not common but fuel for vehicles would be nice. Granted it may be hard to get to some in the first place but in GZ once you get the APC there is very little that can stop you from going on a rampage. An alternative could be limited ammo.


ya sure.

Quote:
 
-Lack of a substantial codec with long conversations with a cast of characters fleshing out the world. By extension we get even less lines from Snake, making the change in VA even more useless, and the lack of manual saving. Hate having to wait to reach some arbitrary autosave which also is quite inconsistent and buggy.

Oh I didnt know you played TPP already and know about independent conversations outside of cutscenes. I guess interacting with those characters at mother base like Eyestone said means you just nod at eachother and not talk. I guess we can confirm there are no radio conversations either because you played it. Arbitrary autosave? It saves when you go to a different section of the map and it saves when you do something of significance. Thats the opposite of arbitrary.
Edited by Venture, Jun 21 2014, 07:45:09 AM.
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Vergil


Don't feed the trolls folks. :thumb:
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huh?
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Jail Guard
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Jun 21 2014, 07:22:09 AM
I'll agree with the codec as it's something I truly miss from the series. A health bar and healing item would def make the game a bit more difficult too
Other than that, I'll disagree with the rest. TPP is shaping up to be the best MGS game. But every game will have its flaws and wont be perfect
It'll never surpass the first though.
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Gun Animal
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huh?
Jun 21 2014, 07:53:39 AM
uncensored
Jun 21 2014, 07:22:09 AM
I'll agree with the codec as it's something I truly miss from the series. A health bar and healing item would def make the game a bit more difficult too
Other than that, I'll disagree with the rest. TPP is shaping up to be the best MGS game. But every game will have its flaws and wont be perfect
It'll never surpass the first though.
You mean the third? :3
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huh?
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Jail Guard
Gun Animal
Jun 21 2014, 08:07:07 AM
huh?
Jun 21 2014, 07:53:39 AM
uncensored
Jun 21 2014, 07:22:09 AM
I'll agree with the codec as it's something I truly miss from the series. A health bar and healing item would def make the game a bit more difficult too
Other than that, I'll disagree with the rest. TPP is shaping up to be the best MGS game. But every game will have its flaws and wont be perfect
It'll never surpass the first though.
You mean the third? :3
How about 1 & 3 then? ^_^
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Intandem
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huh?
Jun 21 2014, 07:53:39 AM
uncensored
Jun 21 2014, 07:22:09 AM
I'll agree with the codec as it's something I truly miss from the series. A health bar and healing item would def make the game a bit more difficult too
Other than that, I'll disagree with the rest. TPP is shaping up to be the best MGS game. But every game will have its flaws and wont be perfect
It'll never surpass the first though.
That's nostalgia talking ^_^

Of course MGS1 will always have a special place in my heart because I remember playing it for the first time when I was 8 years old in 1998, but in terms of technicality, gameplay, features, etc… TPP is shaping up to be the best MGS.
Edited by Intandem, Jun 21 2014, 09:56:03 AM.

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huh?
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Intandem
Jun 21 2014, 09:11:28 AM
huh?
Jun 21 2014, 07:53:39 AM
uncensored
Jun 21 2014, 07:22:09 AM
I'll agree with the codec as it's something I truly miss from the series. A health bar and healing item would def make the game a bit more difficult too
Other than that, I'll disagree with the rest. TPP is shaping up to be the best MGS game. But every game will have its flaws and wont be perfect
It'll never surpass the first though.
That's nostalgia talking ^_^

Of course MGS1 will always have a special place in my heart because I remember playing it for the first time when I was 8 years old in 1998, but in terms o technicality, gameplay, features, etc… TPP is shaping up to be the best MGS.
Well obviously nostalgia comes into play a little but MGS1 still holds up today. Obviously TPP is going to have many more bells & whistles than a PS1 title but you could argue that won't necessarily make it the ultimate MGS game.

I'm just as exited for TPP as anyone but c'mon...MGS1.
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avimran
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Light Infantry
You know what, I think all of the points you make are completely valid. That level of depth is definitely missing from GZ and I'm guessing from TPP too (at least some of it).

However, a lot of the things you mentioned (managing stamina, eating, camo index etc) are things that I found really annoying. I think if at any point a game makes you do things for the sake of it, it get's tedious and annoyingly in the way of your overall immersion. I was playing MGS3 the other day and fighting the Fear wasn't fun - it was annoying because every 2 minutes I had to heal Snake or mess with his camo index and it kept interrupting the flow of the fight. It's like how Grand Theft Auto San Andreas on the PS2 would make you eat and exercise. Why bother? Just so developers can say it's realistic? In the same way, I've always found these elements of depth and realism in MGS to be slightly annoying rather than fun. It's why for me, the simpler approach to these elements in GZ, resulted in me having the best gameplay experience I've had with an MGS game. Yes it was short, but I would much rather have fun with the open world mechanics versus being tied down into managing stamina and health every 5 seconds.
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KoRnFlakes
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Grab that cane, pop that vicoden and tell them bitches it's not lupus!
There's depth, you just refuse to see it because this game has clearly made you very intensely butt hurt for some childish reason.

By the way, wall of text, didn't read.
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You ever wonder...if any of the MGS franchise rations...includes pancakes?

Jack Daniels Whiskey, for when you want to touch as many people as possible!
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Heisenberg
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I read it all, and lot of your points are senseless nitpicking, exaggerations, or just utterly wrong. You make a few points, but not here. Not only was this post unnecessary, but address the real issues such as pop-ins, draw distance, guards shouting = alert, etc.
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Agent
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1) Lack of bars is unequivocally a good thing. The fewer stats you have to constantly track, the better time you'll have playing the game.
2) Finite sprint is an annoying feature in games so please no. However I agree that it's too easy to run away from danger in GZ.
3) Some trivial points about the game being too easy. That demo was made to be a perfectly orchestrated run, what do you expect? And keep in mind this is only the first proper mission in the game, by that standard it seemed difficult if anything. Not that it's fair to judge that on a pre-release gameplay showcase.
4) You said it yourself, reflex can be turned off.
5) Are you really criticising the story and dialogue based on this one gameplay demo?
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Rikitatsu
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You raise some good points, but that doesn't mean the game is lacking depth, in fact I'd say it's looking like the deepest MGS game so far, if GZ is anything to go by. The core gameplay is superb and challenging...
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Fox
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Natural selection will not remove ignorance from future generations.
Those who aren't sheep? Do you know what ccmmunity you're talking to?
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Heisenberg
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MGS fans are really the worst.
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