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Where's the depth?
Topic Started: Jun 21 2014, 06:28:05 AM (4,451 Views)
Snake Eater
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Take Your Heart

Sorry, but all I read there was
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Suede
 
lol well yeah if there aint no doritos then whats the point in living?
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WAKE UP! GET UP! GET OUT THERE!!
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Risev
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Boxman108
Jun 21 2014, 06:28:05 AM
Not many will listen seeing as any constructive criticism towards MGSV is seen as blasphemy but I'll post this anyway for those who aren't sheep to discuss.

So far, judging by Ground Zeroes, the recent 30 minute demo, and all the other trailers, these are what I've found to be missing or poor design choices:

-No health bar. No stamina, psyche or stress. No healing items other than the retardedly unecessary health spray(of which there is an infinite supply). MUCH faster regenerating health that also now is not hindered by low stamina, psyche or high stress. Because of all this, there is no longer much of a lasting punishment for messing up and being caught. There are no consumables to be conservative with, and you no longer need to manage any kind of battle high.
-Indefinite sprinting. Ties into the stamina issue. Considering the AI is awful and the most dangerous vehicles are incredibly slow, this will be very easily abused. Often in GZ I haven't even gone half the map when they call and say they've lost me lolz.
-Blind spots. Pretty much areas that I'm almost certain the programmers made that enemies CAN'T go into to search. GZ has more than a dozen so it might be an even bigger problem in TPP.
-Infinite mags in GZ, only to be replaced by the new and even more overpowered distraction. It replaces the knock, only it can be done anywhere even without a wall or other surface. Wtf?
-No camo index and thus seemingly only preset or purely cosmetic camos. In 4 octo camo was a bit dumb but it added a lot to both 3 and PW, to the point where designated hiding spots were not a necessity and you had to think a bit more creatively where or how to hide or sneak by.
-Dumb AI in general and very underequipped. The guards in 2 cleared rooms very thoroughly, and had stuff like riot shields and heavy armor in 2 and 3, not to mention dogs in 3 and gekkos and frogs in 4. May not have always been the brightest just standing in place or rushing me, but what matters most is they were more aggressive, not constantly hiding behind cover and just waiting for me to murder them with OP CQC.
-Both tagging and reflex, though they can be turned off. Tagging is necessary but overdone. I'd rather it be more akin to sonar and be shortened in range. Considering the logic behind it is Snake's sense alone, I don't find it at all logical that he could see someone through more than a few buildings more than a mile away regardless of how experienced he is.
-A bit more understandable as it's not common but fuel for vehicles would be nice. Granted it may be hard to get to some in the first place but in GZ once you get the APC there is very little that can stop you from going on a rampage. An alternative could be limited ammo.
-Lack of a substantial codec with long conversations with a cast of characters fleshing out the world. By extension we get even less lines from Snake, making the change in VA even more useless, and the lack of manual saving. Hate having to wait to reach some arbitrary autosave which also is quite inconsistent and buggy.

Those are the most prominent problems at least. Bullet drop, weather, time of day and shift changes have been the only promising features so far and are muddled by those listed above. Sure Mother Base stuff is nice but doesn't add much to what is primarily a stealth game. The only argument I've heard against is that "stamina isn't necessary in an open world game." If I wanted to play something simplistic, I'd have chosen Far Cry 3; what was interesting about MGSV at first was the prospect of playing a more open ended MGS, NOT an MGS themed open world game with dumbed down or omitted improvements from previous games in the series.
No health or stamina bars are done for the convenience of the player. I can understand where you're coming from, but for me, they're just artificial things that add no depth whatsoever. Especially considering that giving you a health bar and rations ends up being easier than having regenerating health at times since you could just pop a ration whenever you need in previous games, making it easier than regenerating health at times.

Blind Spots: neither you nor I can comment on this, so this has nothing to do with a lack of depth for now since we don't know about that in TPP.

I can understand why you don't like the new "knock", but just because you don't like it does not mean it contributes to a lack of depth.

Camo: I'll repeat what I said: Neither you nor I can comment on this. We don't know if camo will only be cosmetic, and if it wasn't only cosmetic, then I'd argue that it adds more depth since you'd have to judge the effectiveness of the camo yourself instead of relying on statistics on screen.

Enemies or A.I. : I'll repeat what I said again: We can't judge enemy variety in TPP. We don't know what's coming, so let's not pretend that a lack of enemy variety has anything to do with depth. Can't judge the A.I. yet since Konami very recently said that the demo we saw was intended to show of features and their functions without taking balancing and A.I. into account.

Tagging: Personal choice. Though you know what? I'll say that it adds more depth because you now have to find a vantage point, scout the area, and then plan your infiltration rather than rely on a radar that updates automatically.

Vehicles fuel: lol no.

Lack of Codec: Let's not pretend that this has anything to do with depth, and let's also not pretend that we know anything about the codec in TPP.

I find it funny that you said Mother Base adds no depth to the gameplay just because you know it would weaken your argument, which it does.
Edited by Risev, Jun 21 2014, 03:01:30 PM.
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That Fat Hispanic
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-No HUD is fine as long as its better balanced for TPP, so I kind of agree with you there. Slower health regen would make it more intense and balance out no health. Also, limited sprinting would be great because sprinting was OP on Ground Zeroes with Snake being really fast and having it being infinite.
-Can't really comment on blind spots until we play or see more
-I understand why you're bothered by the knock, but it doesn't mean the game lacks depth
-We can comment little on the camo system because there's little info on it. We do know that camo index is in the game, but it requires the player to judge the effectiveness of it rather than relying on numbers, which is better
-AI wasn't too bad in GZ, but we can't judgr TPP's AI because all of the demos shown tone down the AI to present the game
-Understandable, but tagging is good for planning out tactics and is useful for not getting caught, but your idea sounds good for higher difficulties and options and adds more challenge.
-I like the idea of limited fuel for limited fuel for vehicles
-Admittingly, I miss long codecs too and with a quieter Snake, we have little chance of getting long codecs while playing
How does Mother Base not add to gameplay? You level it up abd manage it, I don't know about you, but it adds more to the experience. Also, the game isn't just a stealth game, according to Kojima, its supposed to simulate operations along with stealth, which is why Mother Base is there along with R&D. Aside from a few flawed points, you put up some interesting stuff, but I don't understand how some of the stuff you mentioned don't add to the game's depth. It seems more like gripes and ideas more than anything
Formerly Judas Wolf
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Men become demons.

some more sigs bc im a weeb
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Tom Cruise
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this might be the best MGS ever as far as pure fun to play


the story is looking PW bad though :x
DEAD CELL 4 LIFE 4 EVER
R.I.P. GARY

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minimii
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What would be the point of putting a mechanic for fuel in vehicles? Each map is only going to be like a kilometer long lol, what's the chances of finding a jeep with only a pint of fuel in it?
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Old Sigs made by Z3L
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Heisenberg
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minimii
Jun 21 2014, 04:09:47 PM
What would be the point of putting a mechanic for fuel in vehicles? Each map is only going to be like a kilometer long lol, what's the chances of finding a jeep with only a pint of fuel in it?
Yeah, it's a ridiculously stupid suggestion. Limited ammo was far more reasonable from him.
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The Doctor
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Inspector_Swag
Jun 21 2014, 02:53:24 PM
MGS fans are really the worst.
Only the ones who will nitpick into why MGS5 is so bad. Seriously, I think Boxman is here to just try and convert people into placing MGS5 as a bad egg
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He mentioned something interesting... Konami, they claim that what they're doing in Casinos are the missing piece... money, to surpass video games.
The Gifs of Karen Gillan
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bigbossbalrog
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Obviously a troll post done by the fool boxman.

Yeah, so were complaining about a story with actual emotional depth? Instead of long, corny, lines done by sub-par actors.
Edited by bigbossbalrog, Jun 21 2014, 04:44:48 PM.
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Heisenberg
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I keep thinking this should say, "Where's the beef?"
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SlyIsSNaKe
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I just want to say how I look at the health system. HEALTH IS IRRELEVANT IN STEALTH! If you're being stealthy you are not worried about health. Health is only there for when you get caught, Boss Battles, and action sequences.
Its all about advantages and disadvantages when it comes to health. Metal Gear has changed and part of that change is the Aiming and Shooting. MGS4 changed the aiming to third person over the shoulder and this made you near invincible with Rations in your pocket. You could kill easier yet die harder (lol Die Harder). A grenade blows me up but I got Rations. One guard is shooting me while I am standing still but I got Rations. But now a grenade or a claymore blows me up and I'm dead or near it. I could stand still and die from One guard now. In the old games because Aiming and Shooting were difficult Rations were necessary but now when the action starts the game needed to turn into something similar to Uncharted.Now I do agree a bit with the stamina because you could sprint for days but you need to run behind cover in order to survive enemy gunfire and now enemy vehicles come into play. Its all give and take.


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Zan Datsu
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Get up & Go

The depth is there, dont know what you talkin about. Just look at the horse shit!
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Until that diamond nipple awesome game is ever created, all we can do is dream that one day, an MG1 remake happens
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Tsuchino-ko
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Zan Datsu
Jun 21 2014, 05:21:16 PM
The depth is there, dont know what you talkin about. Just look at the horse shit!

the horse shit is Decoy Octopus
Edited by Tsuchino-ko, Jun 21 2014, 05:23:18 PM.
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Silent Assassin
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ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

I like how you say constructive criticism is frowned upon (which isn't true) and then go on to call GZ a 30 minute demo. Even though you know is not true, no matter how you spin it. What happened to that constructive criticism of yours? Do you know what double standards are?

I was disappointed with GZ when it comes to story and some other things, so I'm not here to defend every single thing about it. But how do you expect to be taken seriously after the first two paragraphs you posted?
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Intandem
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LOL @ fuel for vehicles.

The mechanical arm twist seems like a great feature. If you use it out of cover and in plain sight, I don't think it will work out well for Big Boss as it will be easy to spot him.

Also, there IS a camo index, but it has been internalized. This was stated during one of the play throughs of GZ on Kojistation.

I don't have a problem with the regenerating health/no-hud health bar stat. It is quite easy to die on hard mode if you get caught up in a fire fight, even running away isn't always fool proof.

There are some blind spots in GZ, such as the cave by Camp Omega, but guards search based on your last known position/last spot you fired off a weapon. I've had guards catch me hanging off the cliff at the main GZ's starting/infiltration point.

I don't think Boxman is going to reply to this thread, and if he doesn't refute or rebuttal any of the counter points made to his argument, then it is proof that he is just a troll (not that we really need anymore proof).

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Heisenberg
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I've been spotted in the cave?
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Rikitatsu
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Inspector_Swag
Jun 21 2014, 08:00:21 PM
I've been spotted in the cave?
Me too, had a full squad investigating there.

The back of a truck however, is 100% a blind spot. (Also, that one cliff besides the watch tower at the beginning of the level, but I guess because soldiers can't climb like Snake.)
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Heisenberg
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Rikitatsu
Jun 21 2014, 08:08:31 PM
Inspector_Swag
Jun 21 2014, 08:00:21 PM
I've been spotted in the cave?
Me too, had a full squad investigating there.

The back of a truck however, is 100% a blind spot. (Also, that one cliff besides the watch tower at the beginning of the level, but I guess because soldiers can't climb like Snake.)
I've had guards see me while in the back of the truck. Even without causing a disturbance.
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Rikitatsu
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Inspector_Swag
Jun 21 2014, 08:24:41 PM
Rikitatsu
Jun 21 2014, 08:08:31 PM
Inspector_Swag
Jun 21 2014, 08:00:21 PM
I've been spotted in the cave?
Me too, had a full squad investigating there.

The back of a truck however, is 100% a blind spot. (Also, that one cliff besides the watch tower at the beginning of the level, but I guess because soldiers can't climb like Snake.)
I've had guards see me while in the back of the truck. Even without causing a disturbance.
Were you standing/crouching or lying down?
Because when I was lying down nobody could see me, hell I was firing all sorts of loud weapons near the guards and they couldn't check the truck.
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Heisenberg
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Rikitatsu
Jun 21 2014, 08:27:39 PM
Inspector_Swag
Jun 21 2014, 08:24:41 PM
Rikitatsu
Jun 21 2014, 08:08:31 PM
Inspector_Swag
Jun 21 2014, 08:00:21 PM
I've been spotted in the cave?
Me too, had a full squad investigating there.

The back of a truck however, is 100% a blind spot. (Also, that one cliff besides the watch tower at the beginning of the level, but I guess because soldiers can't climb like Snake.)
I've had guards see me while in the back of the truck. Even without causing a disturbance.
Were you standing/crouching or lying down?
Because when I was lying down nobody could see me, hell I was firing all sorts of loud weapons near the guards and they couldn't check the truck.
Can't say, it's been awhile.

I remember one time I was hidden in a vent and they just didn't understand no matter what lol
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Intandem
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Dang, I've never had guards actually go to the cave and search it. I have been caught in the back of a truck whilst crouching though.

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