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Where's the depth?
Topic Started: Jun 21 2014, 06:28:05 AM (4,449 Views)
Venture
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mfw dante calls me a cunt
Kelesishiro
Jun 22 2014, 05:11:32 AM
0zerocypher0
Jun 21 2014, 09:40:43 PM
Intandem
Jun 21 2014, 08:30:15 PM
Dang, I've never had guards actually go to the cave and search it. I have been caught in the back of a truck whilst crouching though.
If you leave Chico or Paz there too long,guards eventually find them and execute them...
Yeah. "Protocol according to handbook" or something right? The soldier calls in and asks what he should do and the CP calls back and says to basically just shoot them. Thought this was really odd tbh. I suppose it has to do with the fact that enemies can't carry people.
Dispose of the prisoner per the playbook, repeat, dispose of the prisoner per the playbook.
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Vic Vinegar
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StealthyOne
Jun 22 2014, 06:22:30 AM
Intandem
Jun 22 2014, 06:09:29 AM
Vic Vinegar
Jun 22 2014, 05:54:39 AM
I actually do want the Camo Index back. I've had a few moments where I've thought to myself how the hell this guy did/didn't see me.
The camo index has been internalized, it's still there, it's just not apart of the hud. So be smart about where you hide ;)
Exactly. Instead of having visual indicators, you have to rely more on instincts and careful play. Therefore enhancing the immersion.
Yes, I know the actual system is in place, but I still want a visual indicator. And why not? Can we honestly call a camo index completely superfluous or say that GZ's (or any stealth game for that matter) at times erratic and nonsensical camo system (wait, so holding a guard's body in broad daylight actually reduces my visibility, enough to actually avoid even an alert status?!) is readily apparent, especially with something like marking in the game? I mean sure, the no-index, "use your eyes dumbass" system works for the most part, but again, an index would make things a little more accurate.

It's no different than an ammo indicator. It's usually apparent, more or less, how many bullets you have in your clip, and you could always just reload if you're not sure, but that's not entirely ideal. And no, it doesn't ruin the immersion either.

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Venture
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mfw dante calls me a cunt
I hate ammo indicators
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The Baneposter
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Only me

Fox
Jun 21 2014, 02:50:59 PM
Those who aren't sheep? Do you know what ccmmunity you're talking to?
The community that pretty much dislikes any MGS game after 2? far from Kojima lovers or sheep tbh.
As for his complaints, most people addressed them but i'll throw this in:
-Camo the same way MGS3 or even MGS4 were done, is stupid. In MGS3 it was just a number at the top and you had to go through way too much menu play which made it tedious, and it removed a tactical element of choosing your camo.
I would have liked the PW camo system, where you pick one and stick with it, but this doesn't bother me at all tbh. MGS1/2 had no camo and are pretty fantastic.

-Infinite sprint I don't mind, but yeah its definitely way too easy to run away now as Snake runs like Bolt or some shit.

-Health regen can be done right, I think. Just make the player have to wait a while before he starts to regenerate or have him escape from danger before regenerating. Think Deus Ex: Human Revolution.
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Jim Houseman
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Vic Vinegar
Jun 22 2014, 04:34:03 PM

It's no different than an ammo indicator. It's usually apparent, more or less, how many bullets you have in your clip, and you could always just reload if you're not sure, but that's not entirely ideal. And no, it doesn't ruin the immersion either.

Ammo indicator is an obvious count of something.

Camo index is .. I don't know, do you subtract the camo index from 100 and multiply it by a constant to calculate the distance a guard can see you? I'd prefer a more active system that tells me if I am in danger of being spotted by one of the nearby guards, like a combination of AP sensor and camo index. Some of that they're doing with the music and sound effects but I can understand people wanting a visual representation. Edit: I forgot there's the caution ring too.
Edited by Jim Houseman, Jun 22 2014, 05:22:30 PM.
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townnet
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My complaint is AI can climb up the ladder but why not they climb up the roof?
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Frank Underwood
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Vanilla Coke is better. I'm the shite one.

I'm really happy they got rid of the camo. They never quite did it right, Kojima is better at line of sight avoidance gameplay. Extra intensity is far better than simply wasting time in menu's and whatnot.

Fuel for vehicles is a stupid thing to ask for. The vehicles are weak anyway, they will die before running out of fuel.

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Sword
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Kaz... I'm already half Xehanort
I don't get the complaint about being able to lure guards with a noise without being behind a wall. You could do that in any game since MGS2 by throwing an empty mag at your feet, they just made it less retarded.

And about the tagging, Snake doesn't actually see anyone through walls, it's an abstraction. It's a visual representation of Big Boss's situational awareness. To make it more realistic or less OP I'd say it should wear off if the guard has been out of your line of sight for too long.
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GarlicJockey
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Boxman108
Jun 21 2014, 06:28:05 AM
-snip-

-No Status: I'm with you on this one. Finite health has been such an essential part of the series. I didn't mind life regen in GZ, but I can't imagine how boss battles will work with this. Requiring the player to wait out the Alert would make this a little better. I think stamina and psyche will still be in the game, we just won't get a bar to monitor them with. In some old interview, KojiPro mentioned Snake will sweat if he gets too hot. We might get other visual indicators for Snake's condition. I hope, anyway... GZ did feel a little to consequence-free in this respect.

-Indefinite Sprinting: It's game breaking. I've actually started forcing myself to not use it when I raise alerts.

-Blind Spots: I haven't really noticed this, but I'm sure it happens. GZ felt kind of rushed out the door, so I think this will be less of a problem with TPP. They've had more time to check for bugs.

-Infinite Distractions: This one doesn't bother me too much. Sure, we can do it when we aren't in cover. Luring a guard towards you when you aren't in cover is kind of a stupid idea, so it kind of balances itself out.

-No Camo Index: I don't think this will turn out to be the case. We already know the cardboard boxes feature different camo for different environments. I doubt the item description would even mention that if it wasn't a useful feature. It will probably work like PW where you suit up before a mission. I like that. It makes you choose carefully and puts interesting limitations on you in the field.

-Dumb AI: MGS guards have always been dumb, but I get what you mean.

-Tagging: At the beginning of GZ, Miller tells you that you can see enemies through walls WHEN YOU STAND STILL. Why the hell didn't they implement this? It would balance the feature SO MUCH and add a shitload of tension to the game.

-OP Vehicles: It will probably be a high risk / high reward thing like Grand Theft Auto. You can get the badass tank, but it's the most heavily guarded thing in the game.

-Codec: I'll take it or leave it. It was amazing in MGS1, but I found myself using it less and less with each new game. By the time MGS4 came out, I never called anybody. I think the call function and cassette tapes are a great idea. If you need essential gameplay information, you just press a button and somebody talks to you while you continue playing. If you want optional story information, you pop in a tape and keep playing.

-Saving: Bugs the shit out of me too. I'll be alright with autosave if they can work out a better respawn system. GZ would just dump you where it wanted to. That's a lot of control to take away from the player in a stealth game.
Edited by GarlicJockey, Jun 22 2014, 10:47:26 PM.
"YOU CAN'T FIGHT IN HERE! THIS IS THE WAR ROOM!"
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Nacktreiten
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Jail Guard
Quote:
 
There's depth, you just refuse to see it because this game has clearly made you very intensely butt hurt for some childish reason.

By the way, wall of text, didn't read.

This.
Quote:
 
MGS fans are really the worst.

Resident Evil fans say hi.
Edited by Nacktreiten, Jun 22 2014, 11:11:19 PM.
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Novitch
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Knight
Nacktreiten
Jun 22 2014, 11:10:52 PM
Quote:
 
MGS fans are really the worst.

Resident Evil fans say hi.
I know nothing about RE so can you elaborate? Go into detail if you can :D
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Vic Vinegar
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GarlicJockey
Jun 22 2014, 10:44:43 PM
-Saving: Bugs the shit out of me too. I'll be alright with autosave if they can work out a better respawn system. GZ would just dump you where it wanted to. That's a lot of control to take away from the player in a stealth game.
Oh yeah, the "more or less" checkpoint system. What we have now works for a game like Call of Duty, but doesn't mesh well with a stealth game and goes against the new open world/sandbox/whatever gameplay. I'd go so far as to say that they implement a quick save system. Let me save at an exact time and location. Do what IO Interactive did with Hitman: Blood Money and limit the use of quick saving so people can't just exploit it.

I have my quibbles with the GZ but ultimately I found it to be a great game and a good sign for what's ahead with TPP. But the save system along with the auto-cover are two things that I take issue with. I'd be really dissapointed if they're not addressed.
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Heisenberg
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Nacktreiten
Jun 22 2014, 11:10:52 PM
Quote:
 
There's depth, you just refuse to see it because this game has clearly made you very intensely butt hurt for some childish reason.

By the way, wall of text, didn't read.

This.
Quote:
 
MGS fans are really the worst.

Resident Evil fans say hi.
Are you kidding me? Resident Evil has turned into a huge shit and the fans just want something like the originals, but Capcom refuses to listen and blame everyone but themselves. Horrible example.
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Vergil


Inspector_Swag
Jun 23 2014, 12:30:47 AM
Nacktreiten
Jun 22 2014, 11:10:52 PM
Quote:
 
There's depth, you just refuse to see it because this game has clearly made you very intensely butt hurt for some childish reason.

By the way, wall of text, didn't read.

This.
Quote:
 
MGS fans are really the worst.

Resident Evil fans say hi.
Are you kidding me? Resident Evil has turned into a huge shit and the fans just want something like the originals, but Capcom refuses to listen and blame everyone but themselves. Horrible example.
Yet the new games still make money........
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Heisenberg
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MGSF Patriot
Vergil
Jun 23 2014, 12:52:09 AM
Inspector_Swag
Jun 23 2014, 12:30:47 AM
Nacktreiten
Jun 22 2014, 11:10:52 PM
Quote:
 
There's depth, you just refuse to see it because this game has clearly made you very intensely butt hurt for some childish reason.

By the way, wall of text, didn't read.

This.
Quote:
 
MGS fans are really the worst.

Resident Evil fans say hi.
Are you kidding me? Resident Evil has turned into a huge shit and the fans just want something like the originals, but Capcom refuses to listen and blame everyone but themselves. Horrible example.
Yet the new games still make money........
In hope it's good. Don't want to give up on our beloved nostalgia.
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Intandem
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Vic Vinegar
Jun 23 2014, 12:08:29 AM
GarlicJockey
Jun 22 2014, 10:44:43 PM
-Saving: Bugs the shit out of me too. I'll be alright with autosave if they can work out a better respawn system. GZ would just dump you where it wanted to. That's a lot of control to take away from the player in a stealth game.
Oh yeah, the "more or less" checkpoint system. What we have now works for a game like Call of Duty, but doesn't mesh well with a stealth game and goes against the new open world/sandbox/whatever gameplay. I'd go so far as to say that they implement a quick save system. Let me save at an exact time and location. Do what IO Interactive did with Hitman: Blood Money and limit the use of quick saving so people can't just exploit it.

I have my quibbles with the GZ but ultimately I found it to be a great game and a good sign for what's ahead with TPP. But the save system along with the auto-cover are two things that I take issue with. I'd be really dissapointed if they're not addressed.
I think the respawn works fine as it is now. When you die, enemies know your position and there's bound to be guards around, so instead of respawning you in the same spot, the game spawns you in a somewhat hidden/stealth location so that you're not automatically discovered again. It makes sense.

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0zerocypher0
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Devil Badger
Sword
Jun 22 2014, 06:52:37 PM
I don't get the complaint about being able to lure guards with a noise without being behind a wall. You could do that in any game since MGS2 by throwing an empty mag at your feet, they just made it less retarded.

And about the tagging, Snake doesn't actually see anyone through walls, it's an abstraction. It's a visual representation of Big Boss's situational awareness. To make it more realistic or less OP I'd say it should wear off if the guard has been out of your line of sight for too long.
I would rather have the threat ring from 4...or limit the enemy marking range to a few feet from Boss...seeing them from the other side of the map in GZ is stupid IMO...unless he gets a bionic eye implant that functions like the Solid Eye...
I would feel real trapped if I didn't know that I could commit suicide at any moment...
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0zerocypher0
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Eliab
Jun 22 2014, 06:59:10 AM
Kelesishiro
Jun 22 2014, 05:11:32 AM
0zerocypher0
Jun 21 2014, 09:40:43 PM
Intandem
Jun 21 2014, 08:30:15 PM
Dang, I've never had guards actually go to the cave and search it. I have been caught in the back of a truck whilst crouching though.
If you leave Chico or Paz there too long,guards eventually find them and execute them...
Yeah. "Protocol according to handbook" or something right? The soldier calls in and asks what he should do and the CP calls back and says to basically just shoot them. Thought this was really odd tbh. I suppose it has to do with the fact that enemies can't carry people.
Dispose of the prisoner per the playbook, repeat, dispose of the prisoner per the playbook.
Yeah...something like that...this will happen with any prisoner...you have a limited amount of time to rescue the prisoner from execution aswelll...
I would feel real trapped if I didn't know that I could commit suicide at any moment...
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ADAMska87
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Hi-Tech Soldier
Bet ya won't be complaining about infinite run when he's in the middle of the desert afghanistan
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Frank Underwood
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Vanilla Coke is better. I'm the shite one.

I would consider the trimming of features in Ground Zeroes to be the necessary trimming of fat. This isn't depth you are talking about, it is uneccesary time wasting and convolution.

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