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Fulton Mechanic is kind of broken
Topic Started: Jun 26 2014, 11:13:02 PM (3,065 Views)
Snake Eater
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Silent Predator
Jun 26 2014, 11:43:25 PM
Snake Eater
Jun 26 2014, 11:40:53 PM
Silent Predator
Jun 26 2014, 11:37:26 PM
Snake Eater
Jun 26 2014, 11:30:36 PM
Silent Predator
Jun 26 2014, 11:29:42 PM
KoRnFlakes
Jun 26 2014, 11:26:18 PM
Oh great, more fulton bitching, just the thing we didn't need more of -.-
actually until now i haven't seen someone complain about fulton before, so it's not like it is on every post on the page
You must be new here. :rolleyes:
actually i have around half a year as a member but i've been in the page from before making an account, i made it so i could enter the ground zeroes spoilers area, but with the fulton thing im talking about the recent posts, as long as i've seen i haven't seen others complain about it, maybe i just been lucky but i haven't seen it
Once more...
Hulk Hogan
 
Really? Where have you been hiding?

Spoiler: click to toggle

Just go to the right topics and you'll see them. Endless fulton and other PW gameplay mechanics bitching -_-
maybe that's the thing, i'm more interested about the theories than the gameplay so maybe that's why i haven't seen it
That's okay. I just wish that Chico = Quiet thing never happened :P

OT: If you people think fulton's broken, don't use it. Have fun recruiting ALL your new staff by the lenghty way: Chopper extracting.
Suede
 
lol well yeah if there aint no doritos then whats the point in living?
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Risev
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Got it Memeorized?
Snake Eater
Jun 26 2014, 11:48:42 PM
Silent Predator
Jun 26 2014, 11:43:25 PM
Snake Eater
Jun 26 2014, 11:40:53 PM
Silent Predator
Jun 26 2014, 11:37:26 PM
Snake Eater
Jun 26 2014, 11:30:36 PM
Silent Predator
Jun 26 2014, 11:29:42 PM
KoRnFlakes
Jun 26 2014, 11:26:18 PM
Oh great, more fulton bitching, just the thing we didn't need more of -.-
actually until now i haven't seen someone complain about fulton before, so it's not like it is on every post on the page
You must be new here. :rolleyes:
actually i have around half a year as a member but i've been in the page from before making an account, i made it so i could enter the ground zeroes spoilers area, but with the fulton thing im talking about the recent posts, as long as i've seen i haven't seen others complain about it, maybe i just been lucky but i haven't seen it
Once more...
Hulk Hogan
 
Really? Where have you been hiding?

Spoiler: click to toggle

Just go to the right topics and you'll see them. Endless fulton and other PW gameplay mechanics bitching -_-
maybe that's the thing, i'm more interested about the theories than the gameplay so maybe that's why i haven't seen it
That's okay. I just wish that Chico = Quiet thing never happened :P

OT: If you people think fulton's broken, don't use it. Have fun recruiting ALL your new staff by the lenghty way: Chopper extracting.
True, but I don't think we even reached the point where we should talk about how you should not use Fulton if you don't like it, because it probably is still just a concept at this point, and Konami ARE hearing us at the moment. They know the complaints, and I'm sure we'll hear more about it in Kojima Station.
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Silent Orbis
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All I hate about the fulton system is the cheesy yelling noise followed by a helicopter swoosh. Like, couldn't they get a better yelling voice? And couldn't they have more variety in the yelling noises instead of the same god damn noise for different enemies? God, I'm pissed! To answer your question, fultoning does require GMP.
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Snake Eater
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Risev
Jun 26 2014, 11:50:33 PM
Snake Eater
Jun 26 2014, 11:48:42 PM
Silent Predator
Jun 26 2014, 11:43:25 PM
Snake Eater
Jun 26 2014, 11:40:53 PM
Silent Predator
Jun 26 2014, 11:37:26 PM
Snake Eater
Jun 26 2014, 11:30:36 PM
Silent Predator
Jun 26 2014, 11:29:42 PM

Quoting limited to 7 levels deep
You must be new here. :rolleyes:
actually i have around half a year as a member but i've been in the page from before making an account, i made it so i could enter the ground zeroes spoilers area, but with the fulton thing im talking about the recent posts, as long as i've seen i haven't seen others complain about it, maybe i just been lucky but i haven't seen it
Once more...
Hulk Hogan
 
Really? Where have you been hiding?

Spoiler: click to toggle

Just go to the right topics and you'll see them. Endless fulton and other PW gameplay mechanics bitching -_-
maybe that's the thing, i'm more interested about the theories than the gameplay so maybe that's why i haven't seen it
That's okay. I just wish that Chico = Quiet thing never happened :P

OT: If you people think fulton's broken, don't use it. Have fun recruiting ALL your new staff by the lenghty way: Chopper extracting.
True, but I don't think we even reached the point where we should talk about how you should not use Fulton if you don't like it, because it probably is still just a concept at this point, and Konami ARE hearing us at the moment. They know the complaints, and I'm sure we'll hear more about it in Kojima Station.
How is it just a concept? It's already in the game. Kojima already confirmed Fulton ages ago. And in my opinion, sometimes it's more convenient to simply place a balloon on a guy and watch him fly away rather than carry him all the way to a LZ. Especially when the map is that huge.
Edited by Snake Eater, Jun 26 2014, 11:55:17 PM.
Suede
 
lol well yeah if there aint no doritos then whats the point in living?
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Silent Predator
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Snake Eater
Jun 26 2014, 11:48:42 PM
Silent Predator
Jun 26 2014, 11:43:25 PM
Snake Eater
Jun 26 2014, 11:40:53 PM
Silent Predator
Jun 26 2014, 11:37:26 PM
Snake Eater
Jun 26 2014, 11:30:36 PM
Silent Predator
Jun 26 2014, 11:29:42 PM
KoRnFlakes
Jun 26 2014, 11:26:18 PM
Oh great, more fulton bitching, just the thing we didn't need more of -.-
actually until now i haven't seen someone complain about fulton before, so it's not like it is on every post on the page
You must be new here. :rolleyes:
actually i have around half a year as a member but i've been in the page from before making an account, i made it so i could enter the ground zeroes spoilers area, but with the fulton thing im talking about the recent posts, as long as i've seen i haven't seen others complain about it, maybe i just been lucky but i haven't seen it
Once more...
Hulk Hogan
 
Really? Where have you been hiding?

Spoiler: click to toggle

Just go to the right topics and you'll see them. Endless fulton and other PW gameplay mechanics bitching -_-
maybe that's the thing, i'm more interested about the theories than the gameplay so maybe that's why i haven't seen it
That's okay. I just wish that Chico = Quiet thing never happened :P

OT: If you people think fulton's broken, don't use it. Have fun recruiting ALL your new staff by the lenghty way: Chopper extracting.
i agree with you, i also wish Chico = Quiet never happened, and also it is good to have to ways to extract the soldiers, but yet i think i'm gonna use fulton, especially on animals, i'm curious to see what happends if i send a dangerous animal to mother base, maybe some message with the codec or something like that or maybe nothing but i'm curious
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Risev
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Snake Eater
Jun 26 2014, 11:54:45 PM
Risev
Jun 26 2014, 11:50:33 PM
Snake Eater
Jun 26 2014, 11:48:42 PM
Silent Predator
Jun 26 2014, 11:43:25 PM
Snake Eater
Jun 26 2014, 11:40:53 PM
Silent Predator
Jun 26 2014, 11:37:26 PM
Snake Eater
Jun 26 2014, 11:30:36 PM

Quoting limited to 7 levels deep
actually i have around half a year as a member but i've been in the page from before making an account, i made it so i could enter the ground zeroes spoilers area, but with the fulton thing im talking about the recent posts, as long as i've seen i haven't seen others complain about it, maybe i just been lucky but i haven't seen it
Once more...
Hulk Hogan
 
Really? Where have you been hiding?

Spoiler: click to toggle

Just go to the right topics and you'll see them. Endless fulton and other PW gameplay mechanics bitching -_-
maybe that's the thing, i'm more interested about the theories than the gameplay so maybe that's why i haven't seen it
That's okay. I just wish that Chico = Quiet thing never happened :P

OT: If you people think fulton's broken, don't use it. Have fun recruiting ALL your new staff by the lenghty way: Chopper extracting.
True, but I don't think we even reached the point where we should talk about how you should not use Fulton if you don't like it, because it probably is still just a concept at this point, and Konami ARE hearing us at the moment. They know the complaints, and I'm sure we'll hear more about it in Kojima Station.
How is it just a concept? It's already in the game. Kojima already confirmed Fulton ages ago. And in my opinion, sometimes it's more convenient to simply place a balloon on a guy and watch him fly away rather than carry him all the way to a LZ. Especially when the map is that huge.
I meant the way it is implemented. The whole economy is probably under work at the moment. There's also the possibility that they've yet to work the enemy A.I. to respond to Fulton, or that they're still not sure if they're commiting to the idea of having Fulton consume GMP rather than be an actual item or impose other limits on it.

Saying it was a concept was just a poor choice of words, but that doesn't change the fact that it's still probably not final
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Snake Eater
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Silent Predator
Jun 26 2014, 11:56:50 PM
Snake Eater
Jun 26 2014, 11:48:42 PM
Silent Predator
Jun 26 2014, 11:43:25 PM
Snake Eater
Jun 26 2014, 11:40:53 PM
Silent Predator
Jun 26 2014, 11:37:26 PM
Snake Eater
Jun 26 2014, 11:30:36 PM
Silent Predator
Jun 26 2014, 11:29:42 PM

Quoting limited to 7 levels deep
You must be new here. :rolleyes:
actually i have around half a year as a member but i've been in the page from before making an account, i made it so i could enter the ground zeroes spoilers area, but with the fulton thing im talking about the recent posts, as long as i've seen i haven't seen others complain about it, maybe i just been lucky but i haven't seen it
Once more...
Hulk Hogan
 
Really? Where have you been hiding?

Spoiler: click to toggle

Just go to the right topics and you'll see them. Endless fulton and other PW gameplay mechanics bitching -_-
maybe that's the thing, i'm more interested about the theories than the gameplay so maybe that's why i haven't seen it
That's okay. I just wish that Chico = Quiet thing never happened :P

OT: If you people think fulton's broken, don't use it. Have fun recruiting ALL your new staff by the lenghty way: Chopper extracting.
i agree with you, i also wish Chico = Quiet never happened, and also it is good to have to ways to extract the soldiers, but yet i think i'm gonna use fulton, especially on animals, i'm curious to see what happends if i send a dangerous animal to mother base, maybe some message with the codec or something like that or maybe nothing but i'm curious
Make a sheep army. The dudes who'll attack your base will never see it coming.
Suede
 
lol well yeah if there aint no doritos then whats the point in living?
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Kelesis
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"Mankind will come together, reunited between these fluffy buns."
And besides, we really don't get a sense of the scale in terms of risk and consequences when you fulton someone and it fails (triggers suspicion or full blown alert?). We weren't shown anything in regards to this, it was only verbally mentioned. What if it does trigger a full blown alert 20% of the time? That's 1 out of 5 times you might have to deal with an alert because you decided to fulton everyone. That's still in the range of me actually having to decide if the guy is worth it or not - especially if I'm going with stealth play style, which I usually do. If you are running and gunning, then you'll always be busy fighting so fultoning may be difficult in that instance as well.

Honestly, I don't expect KP to divulge how every gameplay element will work with each other, but I do believe that they're aware there has to be some tweaks in the overall balance of the system so that it's almost impossible to resist the lure of fultoning everyone. I think they intend for it to be more work than that. As in, you should probably knock out/kill all surrounding guards (radius depending on the difficulty) first because they'll most likely see the balloon. I do think at a certain point the players will need to suspend their disbelief...but I don't know a game that exists that doesn't need a little of that.
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Talby
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"If you don't like it, don't use it" is a poor excuse. That's what people said about reflex mode, until we realized that the new alert system is balanced around it, (replacing the old system from MGS2 and 3, where guards needed to radio in with a simpler and less interesting instant base-wide alert) so it being in the game affects your experience whether you use it or not. The same is true of most features in games - individual game mechanics do not exist in isolation.

Additionally, if a feature is badly done, it shouldn't be in the game. I want all the features in TPP to be worthwhile and enhance the experience. In the case of the Fulton, I want the convenience of being able to extract soldiers without having the drag them to the chopper one at a time, but without the unintended drawback of using it as an easy way of getting rid of bodies. How they ultimately decide to balance the Fulton, we'll have to wait and see, but I hope it's a properly thought out feature.
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ballisticola
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That's what people said about reflex mode, until we realized that the new alert system is balanced around it
All Reflex does is slow down time enough to give you a chance. The alert happens the same with or without it.
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Snake Eater
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Talby
Jun 27 2014, 12:18:33 AM
"If you don't like it, don't use it" is a poor excuse.
It's not. It's basic logic.

The alert mode in GZ wasn't built on Reflex mode, wtf are you talking about?

And nothing's indicating that Fulton is a "bad feature". Yes, some people are bitching that "none of the guards are noticing the Fulton". People forget that the demo was most likely played on a "easy mode" (Jackie even got S Rank after 1 Alert and 13 kills), so it comes as no surprise that they fail to perceive the fulton (and there was one alert there caused by Snake using fulton on the jeep).

So, yes. I don't see why Fulton is a bad thing here. You can't even use it indoors anymore, and the game will probably have an indoors level with high ranking soldiers in it. Sooooo.....
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lol well yeah if there aint no doritos then whats the point in living?
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Raiden36
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Talby
Jun 27 2014, 12:18:33 AM
"If you don't like it, don't use it" is a poor excuse. That's what people said about reflex mode, until we realized that the new alert system is balanced around it, (replacing the old system from MGS2 and 3, where guards needed to radio in with a simpler and less interesting instant base-wide alert) so it being in the game affects your experience whether you use it or not. The same is true of most features in games - individual game mechanics do not exist in isolation.

Additionally, if a feature is badly done, it shouldn't be in the game. I want all the features in TPP to be worthwhile and enhance the experience. In the case of the Fulton, I want the convenience of being able to extract soldiers without having the drag them to the chopper one at a time, but without the unintended drawback of using it as an easy way of getting rid of bodies. How they ultimately decide to balance the Fulton, we'll have to wait and see, but I hope it's a properly thought out feature.
It is a valid excuse because some people dislike how it's implemented to the point where it gets ridiculous. Why use a piece of equipment that you don't like? Extract them to the chopper then and only use the FRS on objects for your base. It's that simple.
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(SGR) SEAN
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People who complain about fulton probably think dragging every individual soldier back to the truck in portable ops was fun and not repetative in the slightest.

Your asking for realism for something that cant be made realistic withought making it pointless.
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Talby
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ballisticola
Jun 27 2014, 12:42:14 AM
All Reflex does is slow down time enough to give you a chance. The alert happens the same with or without it.
That's my point. The instant alert feature is built around the assumption you'll be using reflex mode and have a better chance of stopping the alert. If you turn it off, you're playing a game built around a feature that you're not using, so your gameplay experience is affected by reflex mode even if you don't use it.

I'll say it again: gameplay mechanics do not exist in isolation, they are balanced around eachother and can't be divorced from the rest of the gameplay experience so easily.

Quote:
 
It's not. It's basic logic.

The alert mode in GZ wasn't built on Reflex mode, wtf are you talking about?

And nothing's indicating that Fulton is a "bad feature". Yes, some people are bitching that "none of the guards are noticing the Fulton". People forget that the demo was most likely played on a "easy mode" (Jackie even got S Rank after 1 Alert and 13 kills), so it comes as no surprise that they fail to perceive the fulton (and there was one alert there caused by Snake using fulton on the jeep).

So, yes. I don't see why Fulton is a bad thing here. You can't even use it indoors anymore, and the game will probably have an indoors level with high ranking soldiers in it. Sooooo.....


It's pretty clearly designed with the assumption you'll have reflex mode on, hence the faster alerts. The option to disable it was probably a late addition to satisfy purists.

We can also argue back and forth about whether the Fulton as it exists currently is good or bad, but that's besides the point. A feature should not be defended by saying, "don't use it if you don't like it!" That's just making excuses for poor design.

Quote:
 
People who complain about fulton probably think dragging every individual soldier back to the truck in portable ops was fun and not repetative in the slightest.

Your asking for realism for something that cant be made realistic withought making it pointless.


Which is why I said I want a balanced feature that has the convenience of the Fulton without the side effect of effortlessly clearing the area of bodies.

It's also not about realism, but good design. I don't care that the Fulton is unrealistic, but I do care about it being a well implemented gameplay mechanic.

I fully expect the Fulton to be well implemented by the time the final game ships, but that shouldn't stop us from discussing how things work in the game currently based on what we've seen.
Edited by Talby, Jun 27 2014, 02:11:42 AM.
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(SGR) SEAN
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It is a well implemented game mechanic.

This isint peace walker where theres a maximum of 5 soldiers per area.
If ground zeroes is anything to go by.
Any and all soldiers you extract get replaced eventually by another soldier.
And not to mention there are a lot of guards in the areas you infiltrate.
So fulton wont be making things that much easier.

The way fulton is being implemented now is just to make base building more simpler..
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Jim Houseman
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Jun 26 2014, 11:22:18 PM
I like how everyone just assumes we're going to have an infinite amount of balloons or Fultons or whatever you want to call them to just collect every enemy, every vehicle, every crate, etc.

Kojima already stated that we'll have a limited supply. I'm sure eventually after we level everything up we'll have an infinite amount, but as we play through the game we won't be able to just Fulton everything we see.
Yeah look at the demo for Peace Walker, the boss fight gave you enough fultons to capture everyone and stealth the tank driver, in the actual game you had to attack the tank or kill the guards.

I think this game might do it differently and limit Fultons by time, something connected to that 'recovery in progress' message you see in the demo. So I could see it being infinte, but having only a limited number of things that you can ship back at once, and you might have to wait a day or two if you used up all the flights.
Edited by Jim Houseman, Jun 27 2014, 02:32:21 AM.
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Snake Eater
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Talby
Jun 27 2014, 02:06:35 AM
It's pretty clearly designed with the assumption you'll have reflex mode on, hence the faster alerts. The option to disable it was probably a late addition to satisfy purists.
Alerts modes always started instantly in MGS games, MGS2 being the only exception, so your argument is invalid.
Quote:
 
We can also argue back and forth about whether the Fulton as it exists currently is good or bad, but that's besides the point. A feature should not be defended by saying, "don't use it if you don't like it!" That's just making excuses for poor design.
Again, it's not a excuse. Not in this case, at least, because you don't really have to use it. Let's try to apply your logic to something else. Let's say you dislike the tranq gun. You have it, but you like killing everyone, Rambo style. No one's making you use non-lethal weapons. If the thing is in the game it's there to be used or not. Are you gonna force yourself to use a item you don't like? Suit yourself.

But... Poor design? For this Fulton System? It's a huge improvement from PW and it's better than ever.
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lol well yeah if there aint no doritos then whats the point in living?
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Captain Jack Sparrow
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Oh, a thread for my thoughts. The cartoonish unrealism of the fulton breaks the MGS immersion. Itīs so ridiculous to send to the air living beings and very heavy objects at high speed, that being in the same game where gravity and wind have a enormous impact on the bulletīs trajectory. And yeah, like the other gentleman said, itīs a lazy way to get rid of the enemiesīs bodies, and a lazy way to retrieve people. I liked GZīs helicopter extraction system a lot, and I was amazed by Kazīs epic rescue in the E3 2013 trailer, bringing this shit back kills both the point (that had a epic getaway from the place he was being held to the chopper) and thrill (if KojiPro decides to let the players just fulton Kaz, which is unlikely) of the mission. If it at least was realistic, had a hard time vanishing in the sky and being influenced by wind, being retrieved by the chopper and getting risk of being spotted by the enemy and causing an alert or shoot-down, then I wouldnīt mind it, because it equals the challenge of extraction by chopper.
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ballisticola
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I'll say it again: gameplay mechanics do not exist in isolation, they are balanced around eachother and can't be divorced from the rest of the gameplay experience so easily.
Precisely. That's why MGS2 could get away with having the enemy waste time, because the controls and camera balanced it out.

In GZ you can't have a soldier spot you, run around the corner and call for backup, because you would easily be able to pick him off. And the only situation where you couldn't would be because he was too far away, in which case it's academic how much time he has.

It's possible that TPP has updated it further by giving them back the radios, but also have them call out to other soldiers. A system that should work well. There would be no wasting time and they'd only use the radio if they had to.
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Risev
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Captain Jack Sparrow
Jun 27 2014, 03:08:36 AM
Oh, a thread for my thoughts. The cartoonish unrealism of the fulton breaks the MGS immersion. Itīs so ridiculous to send to the air living beings and very heavy objects at high speed, that being in the same game where gravity and wind have a enormous impact on the bulletīs trajectory. And yeah, like the other gentleman said, itīs a lazy way to get rid of the enemiesīs bodies, and a lazy way to retrieve people. I liked GZīs helicopter extraction system a lot, and I was amazed by Kazīs epic rescue in the E3 2013 trailer, bringing this shit back kills both the point (that had a epic getaway from the place he was being held to the chopper) and thrill (if KojiPro decides to let the players just fulton Kaz, which is unlikely) of the mission. If it at least was realistic, had a hard time vanishing in the sky and being influenced by wind, being retrieved by the chopper and getting risk of being spotted by the enemy and causing an alert or shoot-down, then I wouldnīt mind it, because it equals the challenge of extraction by chopper.
But Fulton recovery is a real thing. The unrealistic part is that you can recover many different targets within a matter of seconds, but the concept of immediate extraction of targets through Fulton is actually real (watch The Dark Knight to for an example of how it could be used in real life).

Also, I'm sure that extraction of specific targets like Kaz will have to be done by chopper, since Fulton has a chance of failing, and targets like Kaz who are very exhausted probably won't survive the Fulton extraction.
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