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Eli and David - Can We Please Settle This? (POSSIBLE SPOILERS)
Topic Started: Jun 16 2015, 11:42:22 PM (6,055 Views)
ballisticola
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Still we carry you.

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We all know that Kojima has retconned important character backstory in past games
Important? No.
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Kojima has also used memory implants for both Raiden and Ocelot has used memory implants, psychotherapy, drugs and hypnosis to explain how their memories or ways of thinking have been altered.
Mantis could have erased Solid's memory Star Wars style :D
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I'm just pissing in the wind here, but what if, at some point, Big Boss manages to capture both Liquid and Solid, and, as a security measure, makes them identical so that Cipher can't distinguish between them. Or maybe Cipher did it to confuse Big Boss.
I suppose Solid would have to crack open his best Dick Van Dyke ;)
Metal Gear Solid V: Lord of the Parasites - a study of MGSV
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thabtoUK
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M V P
Jun 20 2015, 02:28:00 PM
I still haven't seen a good response to the scars argument.
Let's say it really is liquid and solid. There's no way they decided to dress the same and there's no way they accidentally got the same scars. That means that someone would have made them dress alike and would have scared them identically on purpose. But what would they gain from doing that?
Watch Christopher Nolan's film "The Prestige". It features two identical twin characters, one of whom cuts off two of his fingers so he can continue to look exactly the same as his brother.

This is because both characters need to look the same so they can pull off a seemingly impossible "teleportation" trick. So, for their trick, the twin brothers must have the same hairstyle, facial hair, physical attributes and even dress the same during the performance of the actual trick.

When to compared one of the The Prestige twins having to chop two off his fingers, having to put a small cut into someone's eyebrow, a few minor scars on their face and (possibly) dying their blonde doesn't seem that big a deal in comparison.

Am I suggesting that Eli is trying to fool his enemies into thinking he can teleport? Maybe, but I think it's more probable that he could be using a decoy or double to fool his enemies during combat.

As I mentioned before, we all know that Kojima has retconned important character backstory in past games and that he's said he won't be sticking to canon for The Phantom Pain.

Kojima has also used memory implants for both Raiden and Ocelot has used memory implants, psychotherapy, drugs and hypnosis to explain how their memories or ways of thinking have been altered.

And I'm not saying that I actually think that this is the case in The Phantom Pain, just that's it's another side to argument that people seem to be overlooking ;)
Edited by thabtoUK, Jun 20 2015, 04:42:05 PM.
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M V P
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thabtoUK
Jun 20 2015, 04:14:20 PM
M V P
Jun 20 2015, 02:28:00 PM
I still haven't seen a good response to the scars argument.
Let's say it really is liquid and solid. There's no way they decided to dress the same and there's no way they accidentally got the same scars. That means that someone would have made them dress alike and would have scared them identically on purpose. But what would they gain from doing that?
Watch Christopher Nolan's film "The Prestige". It features two identical twin characters, one of whom cuts off two of his fingers so he can continue to look exactly the same as his brother.

This is because both characters need to look the same so they can pull off a seemingly impossible "teleportation" trick. So, for their trick, the twin brothers must have the same hairstyle, facial hair, physical attributes and even dress the same during the performance of the actual trick.

When to compared one of the The Prestige twins having to chop two off his fingers, having to put a small cut into someone's eyebrow, a few minor scars on their face and (possibly) dying their blonde doesn't seem that big a deal in comparison.

Am I suggesting that Eli is trying to fool his enemies into thinking he can teleport? Maybe, but I think it's more probable that he could be using a decoy or double to fool his enemies during combat.

As I mentioned before, we all know that Kojima has retconned important character backstory in past games and that he's said he won't be sticking to canon for The Phantom Pain.

Kojima has also used memory implants for both Raiden and Ocelot has used memory implants, psychotherapy, drugs and hypnosis to explain how their memories or ways of thinking have been altered.

And I'm not saying that I actually think that this is the case in The Phantom Pain, just that's it's another side to argument that people seem to be overlooking ;)
Yeah I've watched the prestige but that isn't a good argument as to why they are dressed the same and have the same scars. In the prestige the twins went out of their way to be exactly identical because it helped them perform their magic trick since people didn't know there was two of them. I don't see how solid and liquid looking exactly alike would be beneficial for them. Saying that they're going out of their way to be completely identical just to fool their enemies is reaching.
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thabtoUK
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M V P
Jun 20 2015, 04:50:11 PM
thabtoUK
Jun 20 2015, 04:14:20 PM
M V P
Jun 20 2015, 02:28:00 PM
I still haven't seen a good response to the scars argument.
Let's say it really is liquid and solid. There's no way they decided to dress the same and there's no way they accidentally got the same scars. That means that someone would have made them dress alike and would have scared them identically on purpose. But what would they gain from doing that?
Watch Christopher Nolan's film "The Prestige". It features two identical twin characters, one of whom cuts off two of his fingers so he can continue to look exactly the same as his brother.

This is because both characters need to look the same so they can pull off a seemingly impossible "teleportation" trick. So, for their trick, the twin brothers must have the same hairstyle, facial hair, physical attributes and even dress the same during the performance of the actual trick.

When to compared one of the The Prestige twins having to chop two off his fingers, having to put a small cut into someone's eyebrow, a few minor scars on their face and (possibly) dying their blonde doesn't seem that big a deal in comparison.

Am I suggesting that Eli is trying to fool his enemies into thinking he can teleport? Maybe, but I think it's more probable that he could be using a decoy or double to fool his enemies during combat.

As I mentioned before, we all know that Kojima has retconned important character backstory in past games and that he's said he won't be sticking to canon for The Phantom Pain.

Kojima has also used memory implants for both Raiden and Ocelot has used memory implants, psychotherapy, drugs and hypnosis to explain how their memories or ways of thinking have been altered.

And I'm not saying that I actually think that this is the case in The Phantom Pain, just that's it's another side to argument that people seem to be overlooking ;)
Yeah I've watched the prestige but that isn't a good argument as to why they are dressed the same and have the same scars. In the prestige the twins went out of their way to be exactly identical because it helped them perform their magic trick since people didn't know there was two of them. I don't see how solid and liquid looking exactly alike would be beneficial for them. Saying that they're going out of their way to be completely identical just to fool their enemies is reaching.
Fair enough, guess we'll have to wait until September to see ;)
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The Gentleman Phantom
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There are just so many weird arguments on this topic...scars suddenly being inherited that BB didn't even have when the twins would be spawned, and now them dressing the same as if it's so odd, like we haven't seen fictional twins dressed the same 9/10 times for dramatic effect or whatnot.
Edited by The Gentleman Phantom, Jun 20 2015, 05:48:04 PM.
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SlyIsSNaKe
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The Gentleman Phantom
Jun 20 2015, 05:36:40 PM
There are just so many weird arguments on this topic...scars suddenly being inherited that BB didn't even have when the twins would be spawned, and now them dressing the same as if it's so odd, like we haven't seen fictional twins dressed the same 9/10 times for dramatic effect or whatnot.
Don't think Kojima would dress Snake as if he had a fashion fetish for open shirts being bare chested :D
Edited by SlyIsSNaKe, Jun 20 2015, 06:34:27 PM.
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The Gentleman Phantom
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SlyIsSNaKe
Jun 20 2015, 06:33:52 PM
The Gentleman Phantom
Jun 20 2015, 05:36:40 PM
There are just so many weird arguments on this topic...scars suddenly being inherited that BB didn't even have when the twins would be spawned, and now them dressing the same as if it's so odd, like we haven't seen fictional twins dressed the same 9/10 times for dramatic effect or whatnot.
Don't think Kojima would dress Snake as if he had a fashion fetish for open shirts being bare chested :D
I can see a reason for them being dressed exactly alike more than I can see them not being Liquid & Solid. Unless you don't see them as being real, there's not much reason for them to dress alike whether it's Solid or not other than just doing the cliche twin thing. Or it could be because they don't want others to realize Eli is a set of twins and not just one person. With the red handkerchief on the shoulder, I'd assume them and PM are part of some faction, nothing too weird about them being set up with the exact same uniform for whatever reason imo. All I know is, Solid and Liquid are twins, and I see twins and them talking about LET...lol. I don't know what to believe but I don't see much reason or proof to argue against it at this point.
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SlyIsSNaKe
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The Gentleman Phantom
Jun 20 2015, 06:56:14 PM
SlyIsSNaKe
Jun 20 2015, 06:33:52 PM
The Gentleman Phantom
Jun 20 2015, 05:36:40 PM
There are just so many weird arguments on this topic...scars suddenly being inherited that BB didn't even have when the twins would be spawned, and now them dressing the same as if it's so odd, like we haven't seen fictional twins dressed the same 9/10 times for dramatic effect or whatnot.
Don't think Kojima would dress Snake as if he had a fashion fetish for open shirts being bare chested :D
I can see a reason for them being dressed exactly alike more than I can see them not being Liquid & Solid. Unless you don't see them as being real, there's not much reason for them to dress alike whether it's Solid or not other than just doing the cliche twin thing. Or it could be because they don't want others to realize Eli is a set of twins and not just one person. With the red handkerchief on the shoulder, I'd assume them and PM are part of some faction, nothing too weird about them being set up with the exact same uniform for whatever reason imo. All I know is, Solid and Liquid are twins, and I see twins and them talking about LET...lol. I don't know what to believe but I don't see much reason or proof to argue against it at this point.
Im pointing out Kojima's tendency to pay homage to MGS1 and when it comes to Liquid with his fashion sense.
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Gaseous-Snake
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I think its a vision had by either Eli or Snake which is supposed to represent there being two Eli's (one being Solid snake) but because they don't know what David looks like they just imagine another Eli with a slightly different haircut. If I was to nail it down I'd say its an imaginary sequence shown when Big Boss explains LET to Eli then he tells him you're nothing your brother is far more superior and you are shit in a sort of Sergeant Hartman motivational way which actually causes him years of Psychological turmoil.
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AbudJasemAlBaldawi
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Gaseous-Snake
Jun 20 2015, 07:53:55 PM
I think its a vision had by either Eli or Snake which is supposed to represent there being two Eli's (one being Solid snake) but because they don't know what David looks like they just imagine another Eli with a slightly different haircut. If I was to nail it down I'd say its an imaginary sequence shown when Big Boss explains LET to Eli then he tells him you're nothing your brother is far more superior and you are shit in a sort of Sergeant Hartman motivational way which actually causes him years of Psychological turmoil.
That'd be hilarious if BB started using Hartman quotes on Eli when comparing him to Solid
You too have known loss, and that loss torments you still. You hope hatred might someday replace the pain, but it never goes away.

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The Gentleman Phantom
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Well, the more I think about this the more I just don't see why Kojima would make such a huge implication regarding the twins and not deliver.

I could actually see a memory reset explaining them not knowing each other prior to MGS1 rather than Kojima trolling the twins on his for no reason at all other than to disappoint people who have been begging for this reunion. It could go in a few directions...Zero could have their memories wiped for a multitude of reasons. Maybe they did incredibly horrendous things or maybe just were mentally flawed, who knows. But it could play into this theme of "linguistics" and "controlling the subconscious" as well. We've seen examples of this done with child soldiers already, with Raiden & Gray Fox. A lot is done to these kids to control them and there's a bit of history of having their memories reset. So all and all, them not knowing each other before MGS1 could be explained yet make sense still.
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CIA
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Am I allowed to come back after I beat TPP and call everyone here stupid?

http://mgsforums.com/boardrules/

I'll do it out of respect.
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diamondsnobs
Jul 5 2015, 11:24:49 PM
Am I allowed to come back after I beat TPP and call everyone here stupid?

http://mgsforums.com/boardrules/

I'll do it out of respect.
I'm pretty sure a lot of that will be going on once TPP is released and a lot of theories are shot down.
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You stop right fucking there and apologies Infiltrator . CIA is many things; a has been meme master, a baneposter who ran it to the ground so bad to where it stopped being funny, a complete and utter podcast tsundere but I will NOT allow you to call him a shitty Gary Stu who killed a 7 part book series. That's just mean and unfair.

Sorry if I sound angry but this was too much, even with the strike in mind.


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The Gentleman Phantom
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Jul 5 2015, 11:33:39 PM
diamondsnobs
Jul 5 2015, 11:24:49 PM
Am I allowed to come back after I beat TPP and call everyone here stupid?

http://mgsforums.com/boardrules/

I'll do it out of respect.
I'm pretty sure a lot of that will be going on once TPP is released and a lot of theories are shot down.
I'm looking at the MGS4 forum now. It's too much fun lol. I'm looking at the thread were people saw a trailer of Shadow Moses in the game and some people are like "meh, it's probably a dream" and I guess it was the real Shadow Moses level but they added a line from Snake waking up from the Shadow Moses dream I guess. There's going to be so much to look back on with MGSV. Some things were meant to just be taken at face value and then there was the Kojima trickery lol.
Edited by The Gentleman Phantom, Jul 6 2015, 02:37:13 AM.
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cmbsfm
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Jun 18 2015, 10:53:52 AM
diamondsnobs
Jun 18 2015, 10:44:51 AM
Ultimasnake
Jun 18 2015, 10:22:19 AM
It's has to be David. Otherwise what significance would that end reveal have? Would would Multiple clones of Eli achieve regarding the narrative? Anyone who watched the MGS1 briefing knows about David's hair & the mention of LET just confirms it.

On a side note, I am thrilled we're getting a game with Big Boss that tackles LET, not being present in Portable Ops & Peace Walker was just frustrating! This truly is the Metal Gear I've wanted since 3.
What about David's hair?


It's somewhere on this briefing Video, that is Solid Snake and he is blonde, but they do mention about it somewhere in the video too.
Wasn't it the lighting that caused his hair to look blonde?
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cmbsfm
Jul 6 2015, 08:51:43 PM
Ultimasnake
Jun 18 2015, 10:53:52 AM
diamondsnobs
Jun 18 2015, 10:44:51 AM
Ultimasnake
Jun 18 2015, 10:22:19 AM
It's has to be David. Otherwise what significance would that end reveal have? Would would Multiple clones of Eli achieve regarding the narrative? Anyone who watched the MGS1 briefing knows about David's hair & the mention of LET just confirms it.<br /><br />On a side note, I am thrilled we're getting a game with Big Boss that tackles LET, not being present in Portable Ops & Peace Walker was just frustrating! This truly is the Metal Gear I've wanted since 3.
What about David's hair?
<br /><br />It's somewhere on this briefing Video, that is Solid Snake and he is blonde, but they do mention about it somewhere in the video too.
Wasn't it the lighting that caused his hair to look blonde?
Yes. Exactly. Don't let anyone tell you different.
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SlasherHawk
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I think the actor Jason Cottle(who is playing a character named "David") "solidifies" that a young Snake will appear. Whether or not that is Solid and Liquid next to each other.
Hear his voice.
https://youtu.be/1cK-0W2JRA0 (Embed doesn't seem to be working for me)
Edited by SlasherHawk, Jul 7 2015, 12:54:50 AM.
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