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Fox... Hound? Diamond David Bowie & Orwells 1984
Topic Started: Jul 4 2015, 01:42:51 PM (2,570 Views)
BIGBEN
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Ok, what's up with Dog's and Fox's in MG lore and symbology? Where does Diamond Dog's fit into all this, more accurately David Bowie's Diamond Dogs?

Let's get freaky...

David Bowie is already referenced in the newest E3 trailer from a cassette tape reading "The Man Who Sold The World".

Diamond Dog's was a conceptual album by David Bowie released in 1974 (Peace Walker). Thematically, it was a marriage of the novel Nineteen Eighty-Four (1984) (The Phantom Pain) by George Orwell and Bowie's own glam-tinged vision of a post-apocalyptic world.

...Yeah how bout those lyrics? What the hell is going on in the "oxygen tent" (hospital?) "10 inch stump?"(amputated arm?) ...I'm curious to hear what everybody comes up with from those. How bout the "Halloween Jack" (Raiden) part? Lives in Manhattan (MGS2), "Meets his girl" (Rosemary) there? "Just another future song"? ...coincidence? Jack met Rosemary while living in new york, though It was never specified when Jack was born, only sometime in the 80's, possibly... probably 1984?...

...which is also a track on the Diamond Dogs album...

"I'm lookin for a party, I'm lookin for a side, I'm for the treason I knew in 65?" (Big Boss's search for Outer Heaven, the perceived treason of the Boss in 1964? and himself walking away there after? MGS3)

...Again, this song is reference to George Orwells novel "1984" which has become just in the past couple years, one of the modern worlds most referenced books by politicians, philosophers, journalists, ect, when discussing current issues such as totalitarianism, police states, unlimited surveillance and a world of perpetual war that makes up the setting of the book, which is the world we live in today and the ultimate vision of Big Boss which comes to be through The Phantom Pain, taking place in 1984.

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So what else is there to sniff out?
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Dumbing down to foxes and hounds...

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Why is the Foxhound logo that of a fox and not of a foxhound?...
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...'Hound' is to hunt, so why would the symbol be a fox, much less one with a combat knife? Is this just flawed logic or is there an explanation?
Big Boss and Campbell formed Foxhound during MPO to take down the rouge members of the FOX unit. So the term 'foxhound' makes perfect sense, they're hunting foxes. So again, why the fox with a knife in the foxhound logo? Why not an actual foxhound, or paw print, dog teeth, fox skull? Something that would more accurately represent the meaning of the term, both naturally and symbolically from the MG story? Is there something I'm missing? ...or am I just an asshole for pointing that out?



Edited by BIGBEN, Jul 4 2015, 03:47:27 PM.
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OMG_Its_Grayfox
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Not for any nation. Not for any ideology. Not for justice. Not for honor. Not for power. Not for the future. Not for love. Not for peace. ONLY FOR REVENGE.
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OMG_Its_Grayfox
Jul 4 2015, 01:53:13 PM
Am I on acid?
Metal Gear Acid?

Anyway, seems like there are a lot of connections. I think at this stage, Foxhound is just a name, since I don't think disbanded FOX unit even exists anymore.
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Harambe
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This is not the first time Kojima has taken inspiration from 1984. Both MGS2 and MGS4 are suggestive of the ideologies and philosophies of 1984.
You can see it in MGS4. War is peace. It is the same idea of plunging the world in perpetual conflict to keep the emotions of the masses in check. Ignorance is strength. It is the S3 plan of control through censorship.
Kojima is the doing the same with MGSV. There are a lot more references to moby dick and david bowie. Only time will tell what Kojima is planning. He is going out with a bang.
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BIGBEN
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"The Man Who Sold The World" is confirmed as being on the OST, however it's not Bowie's version but a cover by Midge Ure...



...This was cut in 1982, if you can't tell, it's got definitely more of a 80's new wave feel compared to Bowie's original which was a little more folkish, probably the reason they went with this one. Nevermind the fact that this guy sounds a lot like Bowie.
Edited by BIGBEN, Jul 4 2015, 11:44:34 PM.
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BIGBEN
Jul 4 2015, 11:43:45 PM
"The Man Who Sold The World" is confirmed as being on the OST, however it's not Bowie's version but a cover by Midge Ure...



...This was cut in 1982, if you can't tell, it's got definitely more of a 80's new wave feel compared to Bowie's original which was a little more folkish, probably the reason they went with this one. Nevermind the fact that this guy sounds a lot like Bowie.
Pretty sure that version was just a lot cheaper.
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MaximeXIII
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Seeing the trailer from E3 2015, I think Orwell's 1984 will be useful to understand the scenario of TTP.

The important topic of the trailer was the language. Apparently, Skull Face wants to erase all kinds of languages, hence the "Sans Lingua Franca", "without a bridge language" such as English (proof : I'm French and I have no problem using it :-D ). Code Talker seems to talk about how language was important to create our cizilation(s). But the problem of language is that we can express our ideas, even if they are against someone's will. And Zero's will, with his Patriots, is to unite EVERYONE under the same idea, whether you like it or not.

This is the whole idea of Orwell's 1984. Creating the "Newspeak" to make the language as simple as possible by suppressing all the words that can express ideas. The remaining words would be used for work.

Zero's plan could be the same in TPP... With the AI's, he could slowly erase words from our languages, and at one point, no one would be able to express an opinion against the Patriots. People would be Zero's slaves but without the capacity to express their feelings, they wouldn't be able to revolt.

Also, in the music "The Sins of the Father" we can hear at one moment, "Words that kill." and Skull Face also says, "Words can kill.". That's probably not a coincidence...
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MaximeXIII
Jul 5 2015, 10:10:08 PM
Seeing the trailer from E3 2015, I think Orwell's 1984 will be useful to understand the scenario of TTP.

The important topic of the trailer was the language. Apparently, Skull Face wants to erase all kinds of languages, hence the "Sans Lingua Franca", "without a bridge language" such as English (proof : I'm French and I have no problem using it :-D ). Code Talker seems to talk about how language was important to create our cizilation(s). But the problem of language is that we can express our ideas, even if they are against someone's will. And Zero's will, with his Patriots, is to unite EVERYONE under the same idea, whether you like it or not.

This is the whole idea of Orwell's 1984. Creating the "Newspeak" to make the language as simple as possible by suppressing all the words that can express ideas. The remaining words would be used for work.

Zero's plan could be the same in TPP... With the AI's, he could slowly erase words from our languages, and at one point, no one would be able to express an opinion against the Patriots. People would be Zero's slaves but without the capacity to express their feelings, they wouldn't be able to revolt.

Also, in the music "The Sins of the Father" we can hear at one moment, "Words that kill." and Skull Face also says, "Words can kill.". That's probably not a coincidence...
Not sure if I'm misunderstanding you but Zero actually wanted to unify the world so a common language would actually fit in to his ideals I think it is actually Skullface who desires a world which is "Sans Lingua Franca" and sees the greatest parasite as not microbial but linguistic. He is an extreme anarchist whereas Zero is more of a Fascist, both sit on the far left and right ends of the political spectrum and are therefore staunchly opposed to one another. In contrast it seems like Big Boss started off as a Republican (on the right) then became a Socialist/Marxist (on the left) he kind of goes more towards Skull face's position as time goes on though. Basically their conflict mirrored the cold war. I think Skull Face will definitely be a turning point in the conflict between BB and Zero though because you can see at first they had a pretty healthy relationship where BB broke away from the Patriots due to conflicting interests and was happy enough to just do his private military thing and not think any more about his old buddy but Zero just didn't want to let him go. Its unclear whether Big Boss will ever find out it wasn't Cipher who destroyed Motherbase and put him in a coma but if he doesn't then that's a pretty good reason to hate Zero's guts. I can see Skully manipulating his thinking though and pointing out how similar they are and how much Zero is the antithesis of their goals.

This will probably create a rift between him and Kaz because the latter will realise it was not Cipher but XOF who played him like a fiddle and tell Biggy that they should redirect their anger but BB will be like no that dude is right Zero is a bastard and Kaz will be like no man you're the bastard. The only thing I just can't seem to wrap my head around is why this supposed change in Big Boss occurs in the presence of Kaz in the 80s when they operated side by side in Foxhound in the 90s. I think this may be where some of the retcons come in but that's a pretty big piece of MGS history to start fucking around with.
Edited by Gaseous-Snake, Jul 5 2015, 11:13:15 PM.
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MaximeXIII
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Yeah no matter what's gonna happen, it's will be BIG !

Anyway, I think Kaz will go crazy. Think about it. He lost TWO limbs, also saw the destruction of Mother Base but he wasn't in the coma. He spent his 9 years working hard to re-build an HQ as big as Mother Base was. He's more implied than Big Boss will ever be. And who talks about vengeance and all ? Kaz.

Yes, I think at one point in the game, Kaz will lose his mind. That might explain why we see Big Boss killing some DD soldiers. Maybe Kaz ordered them to neutralize Snake.
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Gaseous-Snake
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MaximeXIII
Jul 5 2015, 11:17:48 PM
Yeah no matter what's gonna happen, it's will be BIG !

Anyway, I think Kaz will go crazy. Think about it. He lost TWO limbs, also saw the destruction of Mother Base but he wasn't in the coma. He spent his 9 years working hard to re-build an HQ as big as Mother Base was. He's more implied than Big Boss will ever be. And who talks about vengeance and all ? Kaz.

Yes, I think at one point in the game, Kaz will lose his mind. That might explain why we see Big Boss killing some DD soldiers. Maybe Kaz ordered them to neutralize Snake.
Yeah you could be right but its also possible that the DD soldiers attack him under mind control and he's forced to retaliate. Either way it still points towards them retconning one or both of their involvements in Foxhound. The way it currently stands is:

198X - Big Boss sets about establishing Outer Heaven
Early 90s - Big Boss is now once again leading Foxhound in which Miller, Grey Fox and Solid Snake are all members
1999 - The next time we see Kaz - who considers Big Boss a monster (although this could simply be due to his exposure as the man behind the Outer Heaven).

To have any deviation from this would seriously mess up the plots of the first three games in the series so I really hope they don't do that in order to include some extra drama in the plot of TPP.
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ballisticola
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Kaz doesn't actually need to be part of FOXHOUND while Big Boss is there. I like the idea (even though I've just literally thought of it now :D ) of Kaz taking Big Boss' role of Solid Snake's mentor and that Campbell was the person to bring Kaz in.
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warrior2014
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We have to remember Kaz may not think of big boss as a monster, as it was LIQUID impersonating him. Liquid may of believed him to be a monster, but Kaz may of been friends till the end.
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ballisticola
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Still we carry you.

It was Kaz who said it in MG2, not Liquid in MGS.
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CIA
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Context of the "monster" line.

Kasler: OK, OK... but this is only a rumor, understand? Three years ago, when Outer Heaven fell, Big Boss was seriously wounded. He almost died... He lost both hands, both feet, his right eye, and his right ear. But somehow... he survived. Then an Eastern bloc despot took an interest in him. Probably couldn't resist getting his hands on a soldier of Big Boss's caliber. They decided to use Big Boss as a guinea pig in Madnar's snatcher project. I don't know the details, but apparently it involved turning him into a cyborg. Now he's half man and half machine. Hard to believe, I know. But if it is true, Snake, you're way out of your league. None of your current techniques are going to so much as put a scratch on him. Snake... give it up... There's no way you can win this time... Over and out.

Master Miller: Snake, that guy is a monster. You can't beat him with just your fists. Use your head! Isn't there something you can use as a weapon?

Big Boss was a super cyborg man. No metaphors. A literal monster.
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I wouldn't take that "monster" line too seriously though, ya know how former couples can get after they split. ;)
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So after the Outer Heave Uprising that Solid Snake stops, Big Boss loses more limbs. That guy just cannot catch a break.
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ballisticola
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As always, Big Boss was called a snatcher as an in joke. That's why it says "but this is only a rumor, understand?".
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ballisticola
Jul 6 2015, 11:37:49 AM
As always, Big Boss was called a snatcher as an in joke. That's why it says "but this is only a rumor, understand?".
Goes without saying he's not a Snatcher. He also didn't lose his right eye at Outer Heaven. I was assuming he got extra robot parts after getting beat in MG.
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ballisticola
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I don't see why he'd need any extra robot parts? Except the arm, if he hasn't already got a new one.
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Eh. My understanding was Big Boss got incapacitated in Outer Heaven and left inside when it exploded. Four years later he starts up a new base and he's able to rip Snake apart. I assumed there was a little truth to Big Boss getting replacement parts.

It makes more sense to me that Kaz would tell Snake to find a weapon instead of using fists because Big Boss is a monster in terms of fighting. Not in terms of "don't touch him, he's icky and hurt my feelings." I find the jilted lover angle a bit unsettling.

I'd go into Kasler talking about Big Boss losing his right eye in Outer Heaven and the MSX manual for Metal Gear showing Big Boss missing his left eye ...

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...or Big Boss's body in MGS apparently not having cyborg limbs...

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...but there's no real point in figuring out Kojima's crazy story when it'll be changed around each game.


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