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Who is better with CQC; CQC
Topic Started: Jul 4 2015, 07:14:11 PM (3,150 Views)
Tobougg
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Hi Folks,

My First post. i have a question that's probably been asked before, but i have one addition that made me doubt the answers.

It kinda involves MGSV as one of the members of the question is the main character. And in what I've seen so far he's a BADASS. Like in the new trailer he's literally throwing 2 or 3 trained CQC fighters around like dolls.

Whats your view on who's better at CQC, i know Boss and Big Boss created it. And Big Boss Taught Solid and Ocelot. People say Boss was the Queen of CQC due to how readily she rolled Naked Snake in Snake Eater. And then we see Ocelot basically in a CQC stalemate in the Wig plane at the end of the game... so here's my Question

Big Boss,Boss, or Ocelot/Liquid.

I'm gonna say Big Boss. Something noone every mentioned when they said "Boss let him win in the end due to her duty" etc, and she beat him so readily, breaking his arm etc.
One thing noone ever pointed out though were actually 2 things. 1: Snake's surprise at the defection shocked him sobadly that he was disoriented, and compromised. Thats why i think he lost the fight on the bridge.
Then the next few the next few times they met, Snake seemed VERY reluctant to properly make anyreal attempt to try to really take her onand damage her, maybe due to the respect he had for her. it was only in the final battle, when he knew he HAD to kill her, that he really showed his true skill as a CQC grand master,far superior to Boss, played correctly even on hard she doesn't stand a chance and she can no longer dominate Snake like she did throughout the game, he pretty muchcounters everything she does due to knowing "It's time, i can't hold back".

Thoughts?
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SlyIsSNaKe
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Shalashaska is beast
Edited by SlyIsSNaKe, Jul 4 2015, 07:42:30 PM.
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El Psy Kongroo
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We never lost control.
I would say the pecking order goes Ocelot < Liquid < Boss < Big Boss < Solid. Ocelot proved to be competent at copying some of Big Boss's moves, but never had any formal training with it. Liquid knew a fair amount of CQC, but from what we know wasn't trained by BB himself. The Boss co-created it, so obviously she's the standard. Big Boss bested her, and Solid Snake bested him. So logically, he's the best with CQC.
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El Psy Kongroo
Jul 4 2015, 11:01:08 PM
I would say the pecking order goes Ocelot < Liquid < Boss < Big Boss < Solid. Ocelot proved to be competent at copying some of Big Boss's moves, but never had any formal training with it. Liquid knew a fair amount of CQC, but from what we know wasn't trained by BB himself. The Boss co-created it, so obviously she's the standard. Big Boss bested her, and Solid Snake bested him. So logically, he's the best with CQC.
Solid beat an older Big Boss in a shootout in MG and an improvised flame thrower in MG2. It wasn't CQC.

The only CQC fight we've seen between them was the CQC hug fight that Solid lost at the end of MGS4.
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El Psy Kongroo
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We never lost control.
Didn't Snake use CQC during Outer Heaven though? I know he never used it in the actual game because it hadn't been thought of yet, but didn't they retcon it so that he knew CQC back then? If so, it'd be kind of bizarre if CQC hadn't been used in his fight with Big Boss.
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Snake used three punches to turn soldiers into rations, but he didn't dare get close to Big Boss. Big Boss is THE master of CQC.

In Metal Gear 2: Solid Snake, Big Boss was considered even more dangerous in CQC.

Kasler: OK, OK... but this is only a rumor, understand? Three years ago, when Outer Heaven fell, Big Boss was seriously wounded. He almost died... He lost both hands, both feet, his right eye, and his right ear. But somehow... he survived. Then an Eastern bloc despot took an interest in him. Probably couldn't resist getting his hands on a soldier of Big Boss's caliber. They decided to use Big Boss as a guinea pig in Madnar's snatcher project. I don't know the details, but apparently it involved turning him into a cyborg. Now he's half man and half machine. Hard to believe, I know. But if it is true, Snake, you're way out of your league. None of your current techniques are going to so much as put a scratch on him. Snake... give it up... There's no way you can win this time... Over and out.

Master Miller: Snake, that guy is a monster. You can't beat him with just your fists. Use your head! Isn't there something you can use as a weapon?

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B3nny56
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Big Boss is da best yo.
Seriously though, Im against the whole "Boss let him win" thing 'cause; well she's a boss fight & if you don't do anything she will kill you, those slams do a ton of damage if you dont counter & she will fill you with lead. She ain't going easy.

Im not entirely sure what the canon of the MG1 fight is regarding 1v1 CQC; but the base was going to self destruct & Big Boss survived & saved other soldiers, so he couldn't have been too injured from the fight. Could it be fair to assume Snake kept him at bay & retreated hoping he'd die in the explosion? Not only that didnt they use guns & Big Boss has a robo arm advantage.

MG2 I definitely think Big Boss would've won in a straight 1v1 CQC match as well; he was armed &, I could see him doin some Winter Soldier type stuff with the bionic arm. Snake knew he couldnt win while unarmed & used his fondess for CQC against him as he burnt him to a crisp after luring him around a corner. While it's a win it's not a CQC win necessarily

& then in MGS4 after another 15 year coma & a reconstructed body at around 70 years old still manhandles Snake & toughs out a heart attack for a few minutes.
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B3nny56
Jul 5 2015, 12:36:28 AM
Big Boss is da best yo.
Seriously though, Im against the whole "Boss let him win" thing 'cause; well she's a boss fight & if you don't do anything she will kill you, those slams do a ton of damage if you dont counter & she will fill you with lead. She ain't going easy.

Im not entirely sure what the canon of the MG1 fight is regarding 1v1 CQC; but the base was going to self destruct & Big Boss survived & saved other soldiers, so he couldn't have been too injured from the fight. Could it be fair to assume Snake kept him at bay & retreated hoping he'd die in the explosion? Not only that didnt they use guns & Big Boss has a robo arm advantage.

MG2 I definitely think Big Boss would've won in a straight 1v1 CQC match as well; he was armed &, I could see him doin some Winter Soldier type stuff with the bionic arm. Snake knew he couldnt win while unarmed & used his fondess for CQC against him as he burnt him to a crisp after luring him around a corner. While it's a win it's not a CQC win necessarily

& then in MGS4 after another 15 year coma & a reconstructed body at around 70 years old still manhandles Snake & toughs out a heart attack for a few minutes.
Metal Gear: Big Boss fight

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Metal Gear 2: Big Boss fight

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If a CQC fight was canon, I'd assume they would've talked it up a bunch like they did with the Gray Fox fight.

gifs taken from chipcheezumlps
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kim kim
Snake! Snake! SNAAAAAAKE!

I would say Big Boss is the best at CQC. He would've used this techinque for years and he taught it aswell. Solid Snake was taught by Big Boss but never really used it until MGS4 and might not be as good.
Edited by kim kim, Jul 5 2015, 01:07:39 AM.
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Xenocide
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El Psy Kongroo
Jul 4 2015, 11:16:05 PM
Didn't Snake use CQC during Outer Heaven though? I know he never used it in the actual game because it hadn't been thought of yet, but didn't they retcon it so that he knew CQC back then? If so, it'd be kind of bizarre if CQC hadn't been used in his fight with Big Boss.
Snake Just using CQC

Snake knew it, just chose not to use it.
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Mar
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Big Boss > ur fave
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Crimson Rex
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I feel Gene deserves a special mention, it does seem his CQC skills are among the great practitioners like The Boss, Big Boss, Ocelot and Solid Snake.
Edited by Crimson Rex, Jul 5 2015, 07:31:29 AM.
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Liquidus Snake of Outer Heaven
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El Psy Kongroo
Jul 4 2015, 11:01:08 PM
I would say the pecking order goes Ocelot < Liquid < Boss < Big Boss < Solid. Ocelot proved to be competent at copying some of Big Boss's moves, but never had any formal training with it. Liquid knew a fair amount of CQC, but from what we know wasn't trained by BB himself. The Boss co-created it, so obviously she's the standard. Big Boss bested her, and Solid Snake bested him. So logically, he's the best with CQC.
If burning a geriatric into a vegetative state with a highly improvised flame thrower is "besting anyone" at cqc..then sure lol. (Not that Solid isn't a badass when it comes to hand to hand..Because he certainly is, The true fact is we will never know if BB or SS is better, they never met in their prime..Even when BB "Kicked" Solids ass in the cqc Hug duel at the end of mgs4, SS suffered the same disadvantage that Big Boss suffered in MG and MG2...He had an "older" more run down and decrepit body (due to the cloning process/advanced aging)

Side note, Ocelot was a verified badass by MGS4 as well lol. Who know's about Liquid..As the cutscenes do not exactly stand the test of time from either MGS 1 iteration, But I am sure that he at the very least rivaled Big Boss and Solid in terms of skill..As we all know had it not been for the Fox Die, SS would not have bested him in combat(albeit the car crash sort of left that outcome to chance, and Liquid just happened to be on his feet with access to a rifle.)
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Devil Boss
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Fast and Correct!
I don't think we have enough information to call this one, but we can make some assumptions.

Big Boss seems better than The Boss. The final fight in MGS3 involves everything The Boss taught him and he still beat her. And CQC played a big part in that fight. Since BB won, he was at least equal to The Boss in CQC. Also, MGS3 is clearly not Big Boss' prime, and he improved a lot over the years.

Solid Snake is better than Ocelot. Just remember the last fight on top of Haven in MGS4. Solid won, plain as that. Also, let's not forget that he had been burned in a freaking microwave for several minutes just a while earlier. Ocelot's injections can't repair that amount of damage, so Solid was in a crappy state throughout that fight. Still he won.

Liquid Snake is an unknown quantity. He was a member of the SAS in his teens (which is a ridiculously badass thing to do) and those guys are extensively trained in martial arts, assassination and close quarters combat, be it with weapons or unarmed. His impressive endurance and strength (he could deplete Solid Snake's health bar with a few punches in extreme) make him a very strong combatant. But since we have only one game with him in it, it's impossible to tell exactly how good he was. Good enough to give Solid a run for his money, no doubt. Better than him or Big Boss? we don't know.

So it comes down to Solid and Big Boss. And since they didn't get into a CQC fight in their prime, we can't know the answer. But we do know:
- Big Boss had the upper hand in the CQC skirmish at the graveyard. However, he didn't win that fight (if it can be called that) because he gave it up, so we can't say he's better.
- Solid did more impressive things with his hands than Big Boss did. Big Boss didn't defeat Gray Fox unarmed in a minefield. And he didn't beat him as the Cyborg Ninja. Solid also beat Liquid Snake. And in his old age he beat Ocelot in the most impressive fight in the series.

So it's inconclusive. They seem about equal. I still think Solid Snake is the best hand to hand fighter in the series, but that doesn't necessarily mean CQC. Who knows who would win in a fistfight? It would probably depend on the day. If the original games get remade, though, we might have an answer.
Edited by Devil Boss, Jul 6 2015, 02:15:05 AM.
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Old Liquid
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Jul 6 2015, 02:11:14 AM
I don't think we have enough information to call this one, but we can make some assumptions.

Big Boss seems better than The Boss. The final fight in MGS3 involves everything The Boss taught him and he still beat her. And CQC played a big part in that fight. Since BB won, he was at least equal to The Boss in CQC. Also, MGS3 is clearly not Big Boss' prime, and he improved a lot over the years.

Solid Snake is better than Ocelot. Just remember the last fight on top of Haven in MGS4. Solid won, plain as that. Also, let's not forget that he had been burned in a freaking microwave for several minutes just a while earlier. Ocelot's injections can't repair that amount of damage, so Solid was in a crappy state throughout that fight. Still he won.

Liquid Snake is an unknown quantity. He was a member of the SAS in his teens (which is a ridiculously badass thing to do) and those guys are extensively trained in martial arts, assassination and close quarters combat, be it with weapons or unarmed. His impressive endurance and strength (he could deplete Solid Snake's health bar with a few punches in extreme) make him a very strong combatant. But since we have only one game with him in it, it's impossible to tell exactly how good he was. Good enough to give Solid a run for his money, no doubt. Better than him or Big Boss? we don't know.

So it comes down to Solid and Big Boss. And since they didn't get into a CQC fight in their prime, we can't know the answer. But we do know:
- Big Boss had the upper hand in the CQC skirmish at the graveyard. However, he didn't win that fight (if it can be called that) because he gave it up, so we can't say he's better.
- Solid did more impressive things with his hands than Big Boss did. Big Boss didn't defeat Gray Fox unarmed in a minefield. And he didn't beat him as the Cyborg Ninja. Solid also beat Liquid Snake. And in his old age he beat Ocelot in the most impressive fight in the series.

So it's inconclusive. They seem about equal. I still think Solid Snake is the best hand to hand fighter in the series, but that doesn't necessarily mean CQC. Who knows who would win in a fistfight? It would probably depend on the day. If the original games get remade, though, we might have an answer.
It was Liquid fighting SS in MGS4. Liquids mind - Ocelots body
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Liquid all day 'ey'day yo.
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vlad06
Jul 6 2015, 03:53:22 PM
Liquid all day 'ey'day yo.
I can go with that. He got kicked off Rex and kept fighting. Only went down because of Fox Die.
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Devil Boss
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It's hard to tell if it was Liquid or Ocelot in MGS4. As the fight goes on, Snake literally beats Liquid out of Ocelot. By the time the Snake Eater part begins, you're clearly fighting Ocelot.

Either way, Solid won. If he beat Liquid, that makes it the second time he bests his brother in unarmed combat. If he beat Ocelot, then there's another beaten opponent to his tally.

I really, really wish we got some more games with Liquid Snake. Such a great villain in only one game... what a waste.
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Devil Boss
Jul 7 2015, 05:02:43 AM
It's hard to tell if it was Liquid or Ocelot in MGS4. As the fight goes on, Snake literally beats Liquid out of Ocelot. By the time the Snake Eater part begins, you're clearly fighting Ocelot.

Either way, Solid won. If he beat Liquid, that makes it the second time he bests his brother in unarmed combat. If he beat Ocelot, then there's another beaten opponent to his tally.

I really, really wish we got some more games with Liquid Snake. Such a great villain in only one game... what a waste.
It's not Liquid. It's Ocelot pretending to be Liquid. Hypnotherapy and nano machines or whatever. I don't know why Kojima went with ghost arm and then liquid poser instead of just saying Liquid survived Fox Die. It's obvious he wanted a Solid VS Liquid fight again.
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vlad06
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diamondsnobs
Jul 7 2015, 11:07:47 AM
Devil Boss
Jul 7 2015, 05:02:43 AM
It's hard to tell if it was Liquid or Ocelot in MGS4. As the fight goes on, Snake literally beats Liquid out of Ocelot. By the time the Snake Eater part begins, you're clearly fighting Ocelot.

Either way, Solid won. If he beat Liquid, that makes it the second time he bests his brother in unarmed combat. If he beat Ocelot, then there's another beaten opponent to his tally.

I really, really wish we got some more games with Liquid Snake. Such a great villain in only one game... what a waste.
It's not Liquid. It's Ocelot pretending to be Liquid. Hypnotherapy and nano machines or whatever. I don't know why Kojima went with ghost arm and then liquid poser instead of just saying Liquid survived Fox Die. It's obvious he wanted a Solid VS Liquid fight again.
I've said this before but I think Kojima realised he made a massive mistake by killing Liquid off in the game he was introduced, as he is quite possibly the best game villain ever. However, once he started to run with the ghost arm he should have kept it, because afterwards it became convoluted.

My interpretation is this:

1. Liquid dies.
2. Ocelot grafts Liquid's arm onto his and because of the spirit medium qualities inherited through his father The Sorrow, he is susceptible to possession by Liquid's ghost.
3. Ocelot sees this as an opportunity and removes the arm but pretends he hasn't and that he is still possessed in order to trick the Patriot AI.

PSN ID: realvlad06
FOB: Sons of Liquid

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