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Death Stranding General Discussion
Topic Started: Jun 14 2016, 03:26:51 AM (30,274 Views)
Rogue Agent
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Stars Norman Reedus. It's basically a video announcing the title of the game - there's nothing much yet. No gameplay yet.

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Edited by Rogue Agent, Jun 14 2016, 02:16:52 PM.
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big_boss1988
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I wasn't hyped for it, but at least you'd expecting something because he specifically hyped a new trailer. Again, his shenanigans don't interest me anymore. It's getting old and lame.
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The Baneposter
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I'm sure he was going to show us 10 minutes of gameplay but those fuckheads Konam-

wait that doesn't work anymore
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big_boss1988
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Never blamed Konami for anything. Even for cut content.
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Ludens
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To be honest, I expected more info on DS but I'm really glad we didn't get anything spoilerific. I really hope Kojima learns from TPP and avoids giving 80% of the game away in trailers, and in the recent talk with Geoff Keighley, he stated that he won't say anything because people would be spoiled. he shouldn't keep us in the dark forever though, but he should be very careful with his new trailers. I think 3 story trailers and 3-5 gameplay trailers would be enough for DS in the upcoming gaming expos.

Regarding the newest talk session with Kojima, he shared some interesting info about DS and showed all of the action figures including the Nedoroid ones, but one wasn't shown, the mysterious body base seen in Twitter pics before comic-con. no word on that or the artworks Yoji signed for the fans either. I think he's keeping it under the wraps, so I think it's safe to assume that it will be featured in DS.

New pics have surfaced, showing Shinkawa-san drawing three characters:

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In the middle, we see a girl with a US flag on her uniform, who looks somewhat similar to the girl seen in Kojipro's Christmas artwork. on the left, we see what seems to be the naked version of the Kaiser droid (the skinny figure with bulky belly and skull shaped mask), holding a pistol fitted with an optical attachment. how it's shown alongside two other (seemingly) important characters makes me think it may be another important character and not just an enemy type, I may be wrong though. and on the right, we see a character who strongly resembles Big Boss (the eyepatch, beard and cheekbones) who also shares traits with MGS4 Raiden, especially the metal plating around his jaws.

These characters are almost certainly from Death Stranding, as they're all new, not seen in any game before, so I think there's no other possibility. so far, we've seen four characters of DS: Norman, the girl with the US flag, the Kaiser droid and the BB looking cyborg. I really want DS to have a large cast, especially considering Kojima's talk about the game having a lot of interaction and freedom.
Edited by Ludens, Jul 25 2016, 02:23:23 PM.
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The Baneposter
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Large cast is how you got the fucky plot that was the MGS verse with about 3 million different agendas thrown at you in rapid fire in a codec convo.
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Ludens
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Meh, what you're talking about is one of the many reasons I liked the MGS series. I'm really glad they got rid of codec in TPP as it doesn't fit with modern game design but I was totally fine with it in older games.

This game should have a large cast, because it's mainly about connections, interactions and whatnot. I also have a feeling that it'll be more serious and darker than MGS. TPP was a good start and DS must take the same route.
Edited by Ludens, Jul 25 2016, 02:23:49 PM.
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The Baneposter
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MGS is a spy espionage series so a certain degree of convolution is expected and many different agendas is part of the appeal of any political story, but Kojima just doesn't balance things well. Everything is over saturated, bloated and as The Departed said you need a caravan of editors to get it into form. For a comparison with a story balancing lots of threads and agendas all at once take a look at Game of Thrones.

Admittedly hasn't been doing so hot for its last season but overall the series juggles tons of plot lines without the feeling of ''wait why should I care about this person and what he wants compared to the other 60 characters?''

This is Kojima's first exit from MGS. It should be a focused project with a focused theme and a focused message, not an MGS style thematic shit show.
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Ludens
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What does "balancing well" mean exactly? themes in MGS series were handled pretty good imo, no idea what "lack of balance" you're talking about. MGS series is theme driven series so it's totally expected to be full of different themes and subjects, and it's part of the franchise's appeal. I never had any difficulties understanding the game's stories and themes, my only problems with understanding them were generated from my bad English, I've gotten much better since then though. the stories may be incomprehensible for some people, but that doesn't mean they're a "thematic mess" or anything like that.

For The Departed's word, if I got him right, he said that Kojima needs a team of editors mainly for the dialogues and editorial, and he's right about that. the series is made by a 90% Japanese team with horrendous English, even Kojima himself who understands English can't speak it. they always struggled with writing the character's lines but Departed said that the series has gotten better with each entry in terms of dialogues and interactions between characters. now that they're working with Sony, things may turn out better since they can always seek their help, providing that convoy of editors for him.

I've never watched Game of thrones and I can't even get myself to watch it, but comparing a TV series to a video game is ridiculous. games are self contained pieces of media that convey their themes in one long run, whereas a TV series is stretched over years and it's no surprise that it'll have much more interaction between characters, much more fleshed out interactions and exploration of the themes. the comparison is invalid, MGS can be compared to films and other video games, and among video games, it's obviously one of the most theme driven ones.

If the recent talk session with Kojima is any indication, DS will be a theme heavy game as well, probably more so than MGS. a presumably darker, more serious and thematically heavier game that may turn into a series. he already described it as "Edgy" and I know he's not referring to Norman's ass by that. he can do simpler and lighter games and he'll probably be more successful, facing much less risks, but it'll lose the allure for those who liked his previous works and quite frankly, he's not going that way.
Edited by Ludens, Jul 25 2016, 05:02:42 PM.
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The Baneposter
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Balancing is when every plot thread contributes something to the overall picture in a satisfactory way, getting just the right amount of screen time without shafting other plot threads or going seemingly nowhere in itself, and most importantly it should be delivered in a fashion that doesn't overwhelm the consumer unless there is a certain intention behind that e.g making us feel the same confusion a character would feel.


MGS games tend to have interesting themes but often times, with a few exceptions, Kojima tries to include tons of different themes and ideas only for a few to be properly realized. MGS V for example fully realized its themes of identity. Then comes revenge, which had a heavy handed but acceptable delivery and was strewn into the plot and characters well enough, but its other themes of war turning men into demons, its controversial subject matters such as child soldiers, torture where all glossed at if you want to be generous. MGS4 is a self explanatory cluster fuck and while MGS1 is my favorite Metal Gear game sometimes I wish there was less focus on the genes part and more on the war aspect and nukes.

MGS2 due to the unique methods it adopted was able to do most of its themes justice but it came at the cost of an awful surface plot and ultimately you really do need to replay it to truly grasp the full picture, which is not an inherently bad thing in itself but it was definitely convoluted.

Comparing video games to TV series is not ridiculous, actually. Video games in general are much closer to TV shows than they are to movies. For starters run time is more comparable, alebit still unbalanced because games have to account for the actual gameplay and how much the player spends doing that. Run time isn't the reason those games can be completely bloated.


Theme heavy =/= thematic shit show. The Last of Us is a thematically heavy game but its not a shit show of dozens of different ideas strewn into one so much as it is one big focused concept that branches off a bit, but its still maintains a certain cohesion. Focus on sticks and ropes or whatever it was Koji was talking about, don't try and throw another 7 different ideas into the mix just because.
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The Departed
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ludens

to add on what max-payne said, mgs1's key focus is genetics, and that's when it works best. but it constantly tries to hammer in the theme of nukes as well, and that's where it falls flat because the nuke aspect goes nowhere in terms of the 'dangers of nukes,' that kojima wanted to explore. we have entire cutscenes devoted to muff cabbages with baker, and that end card where kojima says how many nukes still exist in the world, but that's not the central focus, even when its' the main threat.

the net result is that nukes are just kind of an afterthought with mgs1. they keep occasionally trying to make it the focus of attention, having a message about being anti-nuke, and it ultimately comes off as half assed, because they aren't given nearly enough focus in the plot, the characters, or anything beyond being the mcguffin of the story to be relevant. it didn't matter as much with mgs1 though because the key focus is still genes, and unlike the nukes, that's integrated fully in both the plot and the characters and actually given enough time to be developed and fleshed out.

that doesn't automatically mean mgs1 is perfect, because i'm still really 'meh' about it tbh, but it's more focused, and for the most part, does a better job presenting its' themes and some of its' characters.

when you have all these themes, if you have underline 'other themes', they have to complement the main theme, not detract from them. that's how you balance shit.

and that's why i didn't mind the child soldiers and torture aspect of v because, for the most part, they complemented the theme of revenge, since the kids and eli all wanted revenge against various adults or adulthood itself. torture was the 'afterthought' theme that went nowhere, but i didn't mind it because it was used to showcase what morally gray things deedow was willing to do to get answers from people; to where it's just another 'thing they do.'

mgs2, on the other hand, was the game trying to balance a wide assortment of different themes, from identity, to media consumption, misinformation, truth, etc. and it's incredibly messy as a result.

tl;dr: any given story is at its' best when you focus on just one thing, because it's lets you really stay focused, organized, and allows for a much stronger foundation. the net result of which will be that people can not only follow along with ease, but get really into that one singular theme, as it's allowed to be explored in a more meaningful way.

whereas trying to throw in a lot of things at once means you're less likely to give the various themes the proper focus they need, and thus, they become less focused, and mediocre.

to give you an example:

the dark knight is a focused, singular story, and it was very strong as a result. batman v superman is a very unfocused amalgam of stories that doesn't give nearly enough time to any given arc or character to make most viewers actually get engaged or care, and it's a disastrous clusterfuck as a result.
Edited by The Departed, Jul 25 2016, 05:47:24 PM.
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Ludens
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Every single MGS game did that actually. nothing is brought up just for the sake of making it convoluted. some themes aren't handled as good as others but they're not essential to the plot most of the time, and the player can follow the story and grasp the central themes without having to look further in them. some of the themes are just there as a food for thought, bonus material to put it simply, and the games did that pretty good.

I'd like to have examples of the themes brought up but not utilized properly in the series. I really don't see the point here. in fact, TPP is one of the games that didn't explore most of the themes properly, and it's coming from someone who's in love with TPP. and as I stated numerous times before, it's most likely Konami's interference that caused these subjects to be left barely touched. call me a Kojima fanboy or shit like that but there are plenty of signs that suggest things like the child soldiers and men becoming demons were supposed to be fleshed out. when Kojima himself says he's not going to change anything in his next project in order top make it it sell more, it only indicates that he had to do that in his previous work. how he said Konami was unable to take risks speak for itself. these subjects are pretty heavy, and they will affect the rating of the games and sales for sure so it's entirely possible that they forced him to tone down the sensitive material to make it sell more. it's not because of that nonsensical belief that "Kojima can do no wrong and Konami is evil" or crap like that. it's really simple when you connect the dots. what's interesting is that even these barely touched subjects contributed to the plot. we have child soldiers as an example that weren't just shoved into the story for no reason, they were the key to several important plot points, KOF included (oh, artistic decisions).

MGS4 is my second favorite MGS game, especially because of the themes brought up. the war economy was a very interesting subject that served as a key element to the game's plot, and was explored in a very good way. some games tried to copy the concept and sucked balls in the end. that's just an example,

MGS 2 did it really well, and I even love its surface plot. it starts as a generic hollywood action movie story but becomes a blast at the final parts of the game with that twist and enigma surrounding the patriots and their system and that's why I loved its surface plot in addition to its meta messages. I did play it several times to grasp the full picture and it's not a bad thing at all, I enjoyed every I replayed the game.

It is ridiculous. story driven games do last longer than a movie, but they're still far from TV series in that regard. a linear game can be finished over two weeks, and it conveys the themes in an extremely short time compared to the TV shows that are stretched over years. for the time the games have, they do an amazing job to convey their themes and ideas to the players.

The last of us is in no way a theme heavy game. it's just a straightforward cliche story with a few touching moments, it's not even comparable to MGS in terms of themes. MGS is kinda unique in that aspect, and that's the reason many people like it. it may be what you don't like in these games, but that does not mean it's necessarily a bad thing. many others enjoy convoluted stories like these. I always prefer a game like MGS over something like TLOU and no one can blame me, convoluted and theme heavy games are my thing while others might enjoy simpler stories and there's nothing wrong with that either.

I just said that DS should have a large cast and see where the discussion went. please, for the love of God, take discussions like this to its related thread next time, I really hate it when I have to reply something directed at me which is entirely off-topic. if you want to reply to me, either PM me or take the discussion to another thread because I won't even read your next post here. sorry if I sounded rude, but man you really piss me off when you act like your opinions are as valid as God's words.

The Departed
I get what you're saying, but I honestly don't see how the themes brought up in MGS games are unnecessary. there's the central theme, and there are less important themes, secondary themes that also contribute to the stories and are also food for thought. I really fail to see what's so wrong with it to be honest. no MGS game is perfect in my opinion, but when it comes to handling the themes, I see a perfect balance. the thing is, the secondary themes don't have any impact on conveying the central theme, at least it wasn't the case for me. I'm not trying to sound like a smart ass, I'm just saying I had no problems understanding the central themes and messages alongside the less important ones. the argument wasn't even about themes, it was about having a large cast and it should have, considering it'll feature RPG elements and will offer a lot of interaction and freedom.
Edited by Ludens, Jul 25 2016, 06:12:59 PM.
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The Baneposter
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There is always a certain irony when someone moans and groans about me shoving my opinion down their throats [when that never actually happens] when they try and take an objective high ground about their opinions.

case in point ↑
That and this isn't off topic since its called DEATH STRANDING GENERAL DISCUSSION but since you can't be fucked to read a reply just because it doesn't fit with your MGS is #based narrative [complete with a completely off point read of TLoU] I can't be fucked to make a reply in the first place,
Edited by The Baneposter, Jul 25 2016, 06:12:57 PM.
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The Departed
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Ludens
Jul 25 2016, 05:59:22 PM
The Departed
I get what you're saying, but I honestly don't see how the themes brought up in MGS games are unnecessary. there's the central theme, and there are less important themes, secondary themes that also contribute to the stories and are also food for thought. I really fail to see what's so wrong with it to be honest. no MGS game is perfect in my opinion, but when it comes to handling the themes, I see a perfect balance. the thing is, the secondary themes don't have any impact on conveying the central theme, at least it wasn't the case for me. I'm not trying to sound like a smart ass, I'm just saying I had no problems understanding the central themes and messages alongside the less important ones. the argument wasn't even about themes, it was about having a large cast and it should have, considering it'll feature RPG elements and will offer a lot of interaction and freedom.
because a lot of them don't really add much, and end up detracting by wasting time explaining things that ultimately don't contribute to the story. to give you an example, baker's muff cutscene could have been cut entirely. that's time spent to more or less give a lecture on nuclear muff. it might be an interesting "learning experience," but it's detracting from the main story, and frankly, it's really dry information that doesn't really engage.

others, like mgs2, just come off as more confusing and unfocused as a result. that's why you shouldn't juggle so many themes at once. because instead of one thing really well, you're trying to do several things, and usually, doing so in a mediocre fashion. that's part of why i genuinely loathe mgs2; because it wastes so much goddamn time on exposition. what i said has gotten better with each game is that exposition was both steadily decreased; bar mgs4, and dialogue was cleaner and more organized.

people can say what they will about v, but it had the tightest script and the cleanest, most polished dialogue. people can still prefer this or that, because of key moments, but objectively speaking, its form has improved.

so that's why i'm not too concerned with death stranding having mgs2 levels of really badly written dialogue. because kojima is long past some of those really bad bits. he's not past a certain sense of repetition and 'shit english translation,' because even v was guilty of that. "you became a demon for such little weapons as that?" is not something a native english speaker would say. much like how, in farsi, a lot of our sayings translate to nonsense in english. "dirt on your head." "snake poison," etc.

since kojima has already stated that connectivity and black holes or whatever are a thing, those should be the central focus. connectivity should be the driving point of death stranding. not one of a billion different points. one singular focus means you can make that focus stronger, more coherent. and that's what matters most. cramming so much at once is a recipe for mgs2 levels of clusterfuckery.
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Your mum's vagina is a popular Arabic insult. Dirt on your head takes the cake though.
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Ludens
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When did I take a high ground with my opinions? man you really sound butthurt. I just share my thoughts, and I explain why I think that way. people shit on my views every time and I'm totally fine with it, because they have the right to do so and they at least say why they think that way. you like arguing, and that's a good thing but sometimes it just gets annoying. especially when it derails the topic, making three excess pages that have nothing to do with the title of the thread, and then the mods warn me for derailing the topic while it wasn't even my fault to begin with.

when did I shove my opinions down your throat? you on the other hand, you're the one who hold a high ground and dismiss everything you don't agree with. seriously man, just a look at some of your "argument" is enough to see your stance against others. countless other users are also pissed by your views, but we'd at least understand where do your views come from if you explain. sometimes it just looks like you say these just for the sake of having unpopular opinions, just to go in the opposite direction.

You're free to disagree with me, shit on my views but you should at least try and back your arguments. explain why having such themes are a bad thing like the Departed did and I explain why I think it's the other way around, in the end I may not agree with you but I will understand that it comes from having a different taste and expectations, instead of calling you a fanboy.

I said you should've taken this discussion elsewhere because I know where it would go. it already went off-topic but it would've gone even further if it continued as it happened in the past two times before, not because I can't tolerate views that I oppose. I've seen lot of comments by the fans who hate MGSV, probably my favorite game to date but at least they explain why they hate it and while I disagree, I totally get why they feel that way. you sometimes post some random bullshit that no one agrees with, just to cause stir.

Seriously man, just look at your posts in this thread and other than posting some interesting thoughts, what have you done for this thread? please don't take it personally but I do my best to uncover more info about this game, because I'm excited for it, and I try to contribute to the thread as much as I can. what's your beef with me? I never offended you, never called you a fanboy while you did act like one many times whereas you call me that whenever I say anything positive about MGS or DS. I tried to ignore some of your replies in other topics when I thought I would derail them by replying to you considering your argumentative nature, and I didn't even take it to PM because such subjects aren't worth fighting over.

I apologize if I sounded rude, but at least please try to understand where this frustration comes from. you stated your opinions many times and we know how apathetic you are about this game. if you're apathetic, then why even visit this thread? just curious. when I post a picture of three new characters of the game to make you guys speculate about them and you only reply to my last sentence which was about having a large cast. why not discuss and speculate about those characters instead? I'm not a big contributor to any thread but is it really that hard to actually post something worth posting? negative thoughts are welcome, but honestly, isn't there anything better to say? we know what you think of MGS, DS or anything Kojima related in general, but at least try to contribute to the thread. if you haven't got anything worth saying, then why should you post, especially when you said you're apathetic about this game?

The Departed
Hmm, now I really get what you're saying. to be honest, I never had a big problem with the long ass cutscenes and codec calls but I totally get what you're saying. playing through the HD collection was a nightmare for me, mainly because of those cutscenes and codec call but it wasn't an issue for me when I played the original games on their respective consoles. that bit with Baker, it can easily be removed from the game without having any impact on the story, but it contained really interesting for me when I was playing the game as a teen but I can understand why it may be frustrating.

Yeah MGSV was definitely the best in terms of dialogues, it had some horribly translated lines as well but it was a real improvement over the past games. I think it has something to do with him hiring better translators and editors, Etsu Tamari in particular, he knows what he's doing but the game still suffered from the same issues. now that he's teamed up with Sony, I think he can seek their help as they have people fluent in both Japanese and English who can certainly help him get the job done.

Man, I laughed my ass off when you mentioned "snake's poison" and "dirt on your head", seriously though, translating Japanese to English is a nightmare, the two languages are nothing alike. I really hope he'd have the guidance of Sony's people so the game would turn out much better than MGS in this department.
Edited by Ludens, Jul 25 2016, 07:32:55 PM.
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Ludens
 
try to explain

me
 
Balancing is when every plot thread contributes something to the overall picture in a satisfactory way, getting just the right amount of screen time without shafting other plot threads or going seemingly nowhere in itself, and most importantly it should be delivered in a fashion that doesn't overwhelm the consumer unless there is a certain intention behind that e.g making us feel the same confusion a character would feel.


Me
 
MGS games tend to have interesting themes but often times, with a few exceptions, Kojima tries to include tons of different themes and ideas only for a few to be properly realized. MGS V for example fully realized its themes of identity. Then comes revenge, which had a heavy handed but acceptable delivery and was strewn into the plot and characters well enough, but its other themes of war turning men into demons, its controversial subject matters such as child soldiers, torture where all glossed at if you want to be generous. MGS4 is a self explanatory cluster fuck and while MGS1 is my favorite Metal Gear game sometimes I wish there was less focus on the genes part and more on the war aspect and nukes.

MGS2 due to the unique methods it adopted was able to do most of its themes justice but it came at the cost of an awful surface plot and ultimately you really do need to replay it to truly grasp the full picture, which is not an inherently bad thing in itself but it was definitely convoluted.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Edited by The Baneposter, Jul 25 2016, 07:15:19 PM.
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Ludens
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By explaining, I mean explain it in depth like The Departed did, what you posted still needed explanation to be honest. not that I'm that dumb to struggle understanding your points, that wasn't just enough, not convincing. if you meant the same thing that Departed said, then I really understand it while it wasn't an issue for me. that's not the problem here tough, I said it'd be better to discuss and speculate about DS rather than repeating something that we heard 1000 times before.

Edited by Ludens, Aug 11 2016, 09:06:44 AM.
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The Baneposter
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That's the part where you ask for elaboration rather than going on a very strange tangent trying to make it personal
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Ludens
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Taking it personal wasn't my intention, you were the one who started a fight by posting some off-topic bullshit. I just wanted a discussion about these new characters rather than an off-topic fight. looking back at my replies, I see my wording may have been harsh but then again I apologize if I sounded rude. now I totally understand why you had issues with the subject, even though I don't agree with it. such subjects aren't worth fighting over really.
Edited by Ludens, Aug 11 2016, 09:08:05 AM.
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It's hard to have a conversation about character which we know nothing about though. This is the most information about a game that hasn't even enter development I can ever remember seeing, but none of the information means anything without some kind of context.

As for themes and plots and their application, I do think that Kojis games have traditionally been overstuffed to the point of confusion. V is the exception for the most part, because even the sub themes tie back into the revenge theme. Men becoming monsters and the torture aspects represent how far Kaz has fallen in seeking his revenge. Torture has played a role in every MGS game, but it was always the vilians who were using it against our protagonist. V subverts this by making it the protagonists subordinates who are employing torture, often just for the sake of torture.

As for MGS2, this game was a mess of subplots that don't go anywhere untill mgs4. People now overlook the games flaws because "meta" but seriously was anyone actually engaged by the Rose subplot? Did it add anything to the game that couldn't have been added with less than half the codec convos with her?

Even the S3 program doesn't make much sense, because the level of control of environment needed to create their false narrative. It's not something that could actually be deployed on a large scale.

I'm not saying that MGS2 wasn't a fun game, just that it's flaws are plentiful and now generally ignored by fans based on a Meta narrative that is pretty simple. Worse still the very existence of MGS4 counters that meta narrative.

This isn't a flaw with two so much as it is with four. MGS 4 as a direct Sequal is problematic because it takes all the events that were being manipulated and may not have even been real(as is talked about by Snake in his monologue at the end of 2) and makes them all have actually happened.

Hopefully now that he's gotten away from an established story and has more narrative freedom he doesn't fall into the same pitfalls that plague some of his previous games. I hope he focuses on the game primarily and not so much on outside media(like toys) that he is cramming characters in just because they would make a cool toy he could sell.
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Compromise where you can. Where you can't, don't. Even if everyone is telling you that something wrong is something right. Even if the whole world is telling you to move, it is your duty to plant yourself like a tree, look them in the eye, and say 'No, you move'.
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