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Death Stranding General Discussion
Topic Started: Jun 14 2016, 03:26:51 AM (30,256 Views)
Rogue Agent
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Stars Norman Reedus. It's basically a video announcing the title of the game - there's nothing much yet. No gameplay yet.

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Edited by Rogue Agent, Jun 14 2016, 02:16:52 PM.
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big_boss1988
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I’m sure the game will be great, but I don’t think it will be his best game. Unless Sony had given the guy a massive budget that he got all those actors on board, I can’t see this game being too big to be his best game. I like how Kojima seems to have learned from his mistakes by not showing much. Yet, I dislike him giving next to nothing just to tease his fans.

Is he the best game developer out there? I would say there was a time when he was, but now Naughty Dogs, CD project,...etc all deserve a seat on that table. Is there a bad Kojima game? Hell no in my books, yet he has a bad habit of making people frustrated to the point where they expect too much from his next game. The reason you don’t see anymore hype here for this guy and game isn’t because we hate him or his games. The reason is his way of marketing. Yeah, it was fun the first time. Thing is it doesn’t mean it will always be cool. Remember the red band trailer of TPP? That was one of the coolest trailers I have ever watched. It gave you what to expect from every aspect of the game: story, gameplay, soundtrack, graphics and everything else. Compare it to the latest trailer and you’ll see why people aren’t excited.

I don’t wanna go off-topic, but I’ll answer your question about TLoU. What I liked about that is the concept, story, narrative through gameplay, graphics, stealth and action gameplay. I really don’t wanna go off-topic with this so I’ll stop here and offer an invite for a tour for the game if add me on psn.

psn: bigshnab
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Doakes
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I'm sure Death Stranding will be fantastic as a video game. But I've always had one glaring problem with Kojima as an artist. There is a POTENTIAL for Kojima to be the Stanley Kubrick of video game directors. His direction is mostly unparalleled, by that, I mean, no games feel like the games he directs. MGSV is a third person stealth action shooter with cover mechanics and over the shoulder aiming, yet no game of the same genre comes close to feeling like MGSV, and none in the genre come close to being half as good.

His cutscenes have a visual style that is unmatched by most cutscenes of today, which makes them visually more interesting a lot of the times.

But the difference between Stanley Kubrick and Hideo Kojima is that Kubrick had a degree of self awareness. He recognized very famously that he couldn't write to save his life. So, he stuck to directing and left the writing to more able screenwriters. Kojima trying to be the writer director is what compromises so many of his products. I loved MGSV, but I loved it in SPITE of Kojima, not because of him. I can't say that about every MGS game.

Kojima's track record as a writer has been unremarkable for over thirty years. He's proven time and time again to be capable of crafting really interesting characters and unique, intelligent themes and ideas. And on the flip side of that coin, he's proven time and time again that he doesn't know what to do with those really interesting characters or how to do his high concept themes justice.

People go on about how brilliant MGS2 was because it subverted expectations, but I've always maintained that subverting expectations is not hard nor is it something to be applauded in and of itself. If you subvert expectations, then the real challenge comes from what you end up doing instead. And it's always in the latter where Kojima has always fallen short. People go on about how prophetic that final codec call with the Colonel AI was in MGS2, but one scene does not a whole games' story make, and the idea of predicting social media echo chambers and fake news doesn't make a story good if the entirety of what came before wasn't informed by that. Just talking about interesting themes doesn't make a story good if you aren't putting those themes in practice and giving them meaningful context.

I bring all of that up because fast forward almost three years later after MGSV, and we're with Death Stranding. Do people REALLY think that it was just Metal Gear holding Kojima back? That he suddenly stopped and ACTUALLY learned how to properly write by putting his high concepts to better practice without leaning so heavily on exposition and contrived nonsense? Do people think that everyone involved in the game saying that they have no clue what any of it is even about, or that it takes a LONG time for it to start to make sense is a sign that Death Stranding will be well written?

Make no mistake, I think Death Stranding will be INTERESTING. You can say what you will about Kojima as a writer, but even his worst stories are still inherently interesting when they aren't force feeding exposition down your throat. But being interesting and being well written are two very different things, and for the life of me, I can't think of ANY story Kojima has ever concocted that was genuinely well written. But take any MGS games' plot under a microscope and it falls apart at the seams. The sign of a GOOD story is that it holds up under scrutiny in a way that makes sense. A good story isn't a story that you can only enjoy if you don't think about it too much. Nor is it something so dreadfully convoluted that it takes a team of crack scientists to figure out. Confusing does not equate to intelligent, and a TRULY intelligent writer knows to keep things simple, even with high concept ideas.

To make a long story short, I'm eager for Death Stranding. I'm eager to see MORE of it, and I'm VERY eager to actually play it. MGSV is currently, one of the best games I've ever played, which I'm STILL playing every once in a blue moon because of how fun it is. So Kojima Productions has earned that good will from me, and in a lot of ways, Death Stranding already looks like it's remedying some of my issues with MGSV as a game, such as its' uninspired open world, because in contrast, Death Stranding's looks like it will be deeply atmospheric, and I LOVED Breath of the Wild, so I'm all for a world that's harsh and difficult to actually explore and traverse.

But at the same time, I KNOW that I won't be impressed with the story or writing of this game. It's all about track records, and Kojima's track record as a writer has now and always been deeply uninspired to me. So unless he completely passed the writing off to Kenji Yano, I have no reason to think for even a second that Death Stranding's writing won't be another case of 'good idea, muddled execution,' like everything else he's ever written.
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big_boss1988
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Now that you mention it, this is Kojima’s golden chance to prove himself as a writer. Back then, one could argue that he was held back by having to stay realistic with a game that deals with political espionage action themes. This time around, it’s a new game of his creation with no restrictions.
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Doakes
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If I'm honest, Big_Boss1988 - I wouldn't hold my breath there. I don't mean to sound cynical, but Kojima has never shown the tendency to grow as a writer. Each game is a case of him having a really interesting idea, and bogging it down with utter nonsense needlessly, or just not seeing his ideas through far enough. For that to change, he'd have had to have gone through a RIGOROUS amount of training and re-education, and the literal first thing we get from this trailer is a baby's ASS in our face! :D
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big_boss1988
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Yeah, I agree. I remain skeptical to this game’s writing and story. I know somehow that the gameplay will rock for sure.
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solidsnoop29
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I dont think he's a bad writer. I find his stories far more interesting than any other game. And I personally think we undervalued MGS2. I still believe that MGS2 had the most entertaining story in the whole gaming industry. Maybe it's not how the story is but rather the way it is presented in a videogame. The overall feel of playing MGS2 was just soo immersive and felt soo different to any other game.
That's why I love Kojima games. He presents his story in a beautiful way. Call it melodrama or whatever, but I find it much more interesting than Last Of Us or any other game.

There is something about his games where they just feel different to any other game out there. That something is his ASSET!

Even when it comes to trailers, Kojima is simply a master at it. Other games try to deliver epicness, but Kojima does it naturally.

Im thoroughly going to enjoy Death Stranding!
Edited by solidsnoop29, Jun 19 2018, 08:50:58 AM.
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big_boss1988
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Kojima is defending the use of famous Hollywood actors in Death Stranding.

https://www.google.com.kw/amp/comicbook.com/gaming/amp/2018/06/19/hideo-kojima-defends-death-stranding-actors/

As I said, it’s the only thing I’m worried about in this game. I’m afraid that it will eat the budget and effect the content of the game.
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sadistic_greyfox
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I don't know if I have the right name of the writer, Fukushima? But anyways Kojima used to have other writers on his team that basically kept his crazy in "check" up until about mgs3 if I recall right. Kojima unfiltered is just something that makes his games noticeably worse. He needs that someone to tell him when he's going overboard or talking in circles. Kojima is an intelligent man and a great Video games writer BUT nobody is there to tell him "That doesn't work" anymore. teamwork makes the dream work i'd like to think, while he has fascinating ideas he just needs someone to put his ideas on the right track.
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dg1995
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Kojima is the equivalent of George Lucas in video games.(But with this difference that majority of the nerds are on his side unlike GL where they just loved to bash him and downgrading his role in the creation of Star Wars)
Edited by dg1995, Jun 20 2018, 09:19:22 PM.
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The Departed
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sadistic_greyfox

Here's the weird thing.

I genuinely think even with Fukushima, MGS was not well written in the least. You had cliches and nonsensical storytelling wrapped in underdeveloped ideas or dense amounts of exposition.

But Fukushima wrote Ghost Babies without Kojima and despite its own problems, and despite being a gameboy game, it's got the best story in the series, complete with memorable villains, an interesting codec conspiracy and feels like an infinitely better follow up to the events of MG2 than MGS1, since it's a legit direct sequel to MG2 that takes place at Outer Heaven again.

So between the two, Fukushima was clearly the talented one. Even Agness Kaku, the English localized script writer for MGS2 says that between the two, Fukushima's script for GB was infinitely better. She even goes as far as to say that she thinks it's kind of pathetic how anyone can consider Kojima a writer, let alone a good one. Like she legit hated MGS2, not just for how dreadful her working conditions were thanks to Konami and Kojima himself.

The best thing I can say about Kojima himself is that he has good ideas. But he lacks the humility to just admit that he isn't a writer and should just stick with directing so someone more capable can take his good idea and do something meaningful with them.

With him writing Dead Steaks, we know it will have interesting ideas. And odds are good it will be fun to watch certain cutscenes because he knows how to frame a scene. But he I not now nor will he ever be a good writer.

As for the celebrities idea, Kojima can fuck right off with that shit. No disrespect to any of the actors on Dead Steaks, but there isn't a single one that a real voice actor couldn't do the same job ten times better for a fraction of the cost. It's a bullshit excuse to get recognizable faces to boost sales and to simultaneously allow Kojima to pretend he's a movie director since any attempt at live direction in any medium except gaming would end with him laughed outta the industry.

Don't get me wrong, I loved Kiefersnake in V for Vegetable Oil, but his facial acting wasn't used enough to justify the initial sale and any 50+ year old established VA capable of subtlety could've done what he did, even if it wasn't Hayter.
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Psajdak
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I don't mind Kojima being Kojima when it comes to his writing, but I do dislike how his each new game became creepier than the preceding one, well, except maybe Peace Walker.

Even more than consistency in story, I think he rather always wants to test how further to push the limits of latest console at the time of making particular game, which is also a good thing, too, I guess..
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tonic
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The flea and the acrobat is a likely explanation of a lot of what we are seeing in DS. Check it out in this Stranger Things snippet:

https://youtu.be/LHNJ4DLXOjQ

Likely it’s the final Bang Sam was talking about that caused the tear in time and space. Notice how he said it would disrupt our magnetic field. In the trailers the handprints only physically affect the black sand. The black sand I believe to be magnetite (a magnetic sand). The impressions they are making on the ground I’m guessing is caused by the magnetism as they come into our world through the time space portal.
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solidsnoop29
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I agree with you the Departed.
But I still don't think MGS2 was bad. Most of us here began with mGS2 hence the reason why we started to become fans of the series.
I can't see any cliches or anything. I would see mgs series it's own genre.

But I will say I found mgs 4 very cheesy especially with the bosses. But I still enjoyed it!
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"This world will become one - I have found the way. Race, Tribal affiliations, National borders. Even our faces will be irrelevant. The world that The Boss envisioned will finally become a reality. And it will make mankind whole again...".


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The Departed
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solidsnoop29

Since you mentioned MGS2, here's what Agness Kaku (who brought us the English version of MGS2) said, and I think what she said sums up my feelings about Kojima in a nutshell:
MGS2 has good ideas. But all it ever does is talk about them and typically for way too long and with really clunky and bad dialogue that could be trimmed by more than half.

I compare MGS2 to Dude Sex. With Dude Sex (Deus Ex), you don't just have bad guys and supporting characters talking nonstop about conspiracy theories, we see them put in action and actually show the affect said conspiracies have on the world.

For all the talk of MGS2 predicting this and that, most of that means fuck all in the grand scheme of things in MGS2's story. It's more like, "MGS2 talks about these things," and talking about relevant themes versus actually putting them to practice are two very different beasts.

Anyone can talk about these poignant things that make us think. But it's good writers who put them into practice and give us meaningful context to get where shit's coming from. Kojima has never once done that. And even in his attempts to be meta with MGS2, tricking us with trailers and misleading openings and all the MGS1 shit, it still kinda falls flat when you realize the reasons for why this is the way it is doesn't really hold up anymore.
Edited by The Departed, Jun 21 2018, 06:43:17 PM.
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sadistic_greyfox
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I mean For its time, what were we getting in games writing keiv? For the time and for what was available at the time kojima was clearly leaps and bounds ahead and caring of his universe that alot of his peers at that time. Maybe the stories aren't even on a scifi movie level of writing but his world building was always his strongpoint. I mean here we are chatting about MGS so he's done somethings right. if it was just purely on gameplay none of us would be here haha.

On mgs2 We will always disagree, I see it in a different light than you do. I do think This was Kojima at his height of expressing himself before than harsh backlash he received but that's just me. I can still play mgs2 now and find it hard to skip alot of the end game cutscenes and codec convos. Right game at the right time? maybe?
Edited by sadistic_greyfox, Jun 21 2018, 11:12:29 PM.
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The Departed
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sadistic_greyfox

For the time, if you were to ask me which games had better writing during those first couple years, I'd say Half Life and Deus Ex. Both told really interesting stories and Deus Ex managed to also be relevant all these years later whilst doing more to show its themes and commentaries as opposed to just talking about them.

For the time, sure, I loved these games when they first came out. We were all a lot younger, and Kojima saw that games could be used to tell a story in cinematic fashion. He's one of the pioneers in that regard and even I'll give him props for that.

But it's like old movies. For their times, they can be game changers but they won't all hold up as the years go by and how we felt twenty years ago may not reflect how we feel today. Like you can appreciate what they did for their time but by today's standards, recognize that it's kinda flawed.

And the thing is, so much of why MGS just doesn't work for me in terms of its basic writing isn't because of how dated stuff is. Deus Ex is older than MGS2 and full of really dated and cheesy shit but the way it tons it's story and conveyed its themes just held up for me. It was conscious story related decisions that killed the MGS games' stories for me. I mean, I'm an MGS fan in spite of all that because these games all feel distinct. But to me, if I have to basically "not overthink things too much" to appreciate things, then something is amiss.

Maybe it's just me. The vast majority of people do seem to enjoy the writing more than I do, at least in the first three games. But it's a case where the instant I take any of these games under a microscope, they fall apart.

And I'll probably never appreciate MGS2 the way half this forum does.

I've come around on the game itself since there's so much bonus content on the HD edition that makes it all super replayable. But I always saw MGS2 as Kojima just too way up his own ass for his own good. And to me, that's Kojima unleashed, and Kojima at my least favorite. He's a guy with so many ideas but no filter to help him see maybe he shouldn't throw literally everything at the wall and see what sticks.

That's why I don't have any faith in Deaf Streakings story. V taught me that KojiPro knows how to make a quality-as-fuck video game that's really fun to play. But it also taught me that Kojima should leave the scripts to someone else...preferably someone whose first language is English, and who knows that complicated storytelling isn't quite the same as good storytelling.

But I'll say this much.

Kojima at least does just enough to where, even if you don't lie any given story, you can still get something out of it; be it a conversation, a character or two you really like, or a giggle at lines like, "I live on through this arm!"
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Edgelord
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So what do we know so far?

Reedus plays Sam Bridges, a porter who's job it appears is a deliveryman of some sort.
Looks lile stealth will play a part as action judging by the fact he has a rifle and we saw those skeleton soldiers, attacks planes and tanks.

Each trailer seems to show a different game. Interested to see what this game is
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trimegadon
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Jun 22 2018, 12:14:36 AM
sadistic_greyfox

For the time, if you were to ask me which games had better writing during those first couple years, I'd say Half Life and Deus Ex. Both told really interesting stories and Deus Ex managed to also be relevant all these years later whilst doing more to show its themes and commentaries as opposed to just talking about them.

For the time, sure, I loved these games when they first came out. We were all a lot younger, and Kojima saw that games could be used to tell a story in cinematic fashion. He's one of the pioneers in that regard and even I'll give him props for that.

But it's like old movies. For their times, they can be game changers but they won't all hold up as the years go by and how we felt twenty years ago may not reflect how we feel today. Like you can appreciate what they did for their time but by today's standards, recognize that it's kinda flawed.

And the thing is, so much of why MGS just doesn't work for me in terms of its basic writing isn't because of how dated stuff is. Deus Ex is older than MGS2 and full of really dated and cheesy shit but the way it tons it's story and conveyed its themes just held up for me. It was conscious story related decisions that killed the MGS games' stories for me. I mean, I'm an MGS fan in spite of all that because these games all feel distinct. But to me, if I have to basically "not overthink things too much" to appreciate things, then something is amiss.

Maybe it's just me. The vast majority of people do seem to enjoy the writing more than I do, at least in the first three games. But it's a case where the instant I take any of these games under a microscope, they fall apart.

And I'll probably never appreciate MGS2 the way half this forum does.

I've come around on the game itself since there's so much bonus content on the HD edition that makes it all super replayable. But I always saw MGS2 as Kojima just too way up his own ass for his own good. And to me, that's Kojima unleashed, and Kojima at my least favorite. He's a guy with so many ideas but no filter to help him see maybe he shouldn't throw literally everything at the wall and see what sticks.

That's why I don't have any faith in Deaf Streakings story. V taught me that KojiPro knows how to make a quality-as-fuck video game that's really fun to play. But it also taught me that Kojima should leave the scripts to someone else...preferably someone whose first language is English, and who knows that complicated storytelling isn't quite the same as good storytelling.

But I'll say this much.

Kojima at least does just enough to where, even if you don't lie any given story, you can still get something out of it; be it a conversation, a character or two you really like, or a giggle at lines like, "I live on through this arm!"
Dep, you dont like anime, do you?
Edited by trimegadon, Jun 22 2018, 02:30:23 AM.
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Psajdak
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Never, ever, ever, ever, even if the world ends, assume that Metal Gear games have anything else more than anime story.

They ARE 100%, true, honest, no other way around it, fucking anime games, and original japanese voice actors were / choosen specifically for characters they borrow their voice to.

Now, if you don't like anime in general, then you are the problem.
Edited by Psajdak, Jun 22 2018, 10:06:26 AM.
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Khun
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Why do so many people assume that the gameplay of Death Stranding is going to be "solid", at least the equivalent of TPP in terms of complexity? Bear in mind that Death Stranding is about, basically, Kojima having full creative control thus him doing whatever he wants. Why would he care about gameplay (the same thing applies to a so-called "well-written story")? He seems to be more focus on having Hollywood actors be part of this project. DS might be a "playable movie" hence something very different from TPP. Like Psajdak said, DS seems creepy. You can bet that Kojima will not leave you indifferent, and he's certainly not making DS to please you and meet your expectations. I hope that it's going to be memorable.


Edited by Khun, Jun 22 2018, 10:30:48 AM.
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