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Death Stranding General Discussion
Topic Started: Jun 14 2016, 03:26:51 AM (30,255 Views)
Rogue Agent
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Stars Norman Reedus. It's basically a video announcing the title of the game - there's nothing much yet. No gameplay yet.

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Edited by Rogue Agent, Jun 14 2016, 02:16:52 PM.
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Psajdak
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Well, it wouldn't be the first time...

Both Snatcher and Policenauts, while both great for what they were, graphic adventure games, had very little actual gameplay.
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trimegadon
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all out.

Just a little side note on my impression for the latest trailer; As i said i'm all in for an alternative take on a survival open world game but with one condition. The world which is obviously going to be in the barren side of things, is not in any way shape or form that of mgs v. As much as i love this game for its gameplay and super tight stealth mechanics, the world was one of the most dissapointing and empty/filler worlds of modern times for a single player game of this type of atmosphere, that also got majorly hindered by unneeded and dated narative and gameplay ideas (cassette tapes, Motherbase). So if traversing alone from point A to point B makes me ''lose'' my way with things to see and do then fine, but if i'm just waiting for the floor under my feet to reach a designated targer then i'm afraid, as much as i love Kojima, i'm gonna start having my doubts for him as a game developer moving forward.
Edited by trimegadon, Jun 23 2018, 03:10:40 AM.
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The Departed
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trimegadon

lol no, I'm not Phaser in all his "fuck anime! I'm not projecting you're projecting" silliness. But I could never get into anime. Too many things just don't jive with me in anime. The only series I can say I'm an actual fan of was FMA and Brotherhood.
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trimegadon
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all out.

The Deprarted
Jun 22 2018, 02:29:52 AM


That's why I don't have any faith in Deaf Streakings story. V taught me that KojiPro knows how to make a quality-as-fuck video game that's really fun to play. But it also taught me that Kojima should leave the scripts to someone else...preferably someone whose first language is English, and who knows that complicated storytelling isn't quite the same as good storytelling.

You see Dep, as much as i enjoy reading your posts and i really appreciate your demeanor for all things metal gear in this forum cause to be perfectly honest with you , as much as i find it irritating at times, there are people here who take this far too serious and you come in as an anti stress ball of some sorts and take all this thing into perspective again.
But sometimes you seem to be on the hating part of it for reasons that seem to be a little too far off and more into the sphere of wishful thinking, paradigm of that in the quote from your last post. You see, the reason most of the people here enjoy Hideo's games is that one thing alone; A Japanese game developer, trying to marry the western film culture with that of the japanese anime world and obscure horror themes all wrapped up in a playable art form that's videogames. Looking at all these things he is trying to combine from each corner, you start to realize how difficult that is and pretty laughable in any way you try to see this thing becoming a reality. But somehow this dude made it, and from that he crafted his own style and created his own space and paved the way in what seems to be the future of films and videogames.
Its ok to not like Hideo's writing, games, style or whatever. But you can't ask of a person to change the only thing that makes him distinct from all the others. Nothing is perfect and nothing is for everyone.
also if you not into anime and you watch mgs unfold, i feel your pain.
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Edited by trimegadon, Jun 23 2018, 04:33:40 PM.
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The Departed
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trimegadon

See, I don't necessarily think that Kojima's actual script is what makes MGS or any of his games what they are tbh.

It's the more the ideas and various themes he conjures up and, more importantly, how each game plays fundamentally unique from others in the genre. Kojima's also a fairly decent video game director. I don't think the one trait that ties it all together is cheesy or often inconsistent writing. I think, like Stanley Kubrick, Kojima can collaborate and concoct a script with someone who can take Kojima's ideas and themes and structure them in a way that only extenuates what works without bogging the script down with what doesn't, y'know?
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trimegadon
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There is nothing wrong with collaboration, but its another thing saying to leave the scripts to a different person entirely and of an English descent, i think.
Edited by trimegadon, Jun 24 2018, 02:02:48 AM.
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Doakes
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I DO get what you are saying, Trimegadon - And I think the solution is kind of a middle ground. And that middle ground would be having a GHOST writer whose first language is English and not Japanese. Ghost Writing is a common practice even for English speaking screenwriters, and it's meant to basically act as both cleanup and criticism. See, whenever you write anything, IDEALLY, it's going to go through draft after draft after draft, and not go the Star Wars Prequel route. :P

The process of Ghost Writing basically boils down to the original writers crafting the script, and going through it with a fine tooth comb. And after the fact, you have the ghost writer do the exact same thing, going through line after line, tweaking lines that need work, cutting lines that are superfluous, and making note of things they feel may or may not work. A Ghost Writer doesn't have final say unless the original writer allows them to or hires them to have final say because they trust their judgement. Whatever they feel may not work, because it's their job to look at the script as objectively as they can and try to craft the tightest, strongest version of it, they make note of and bring those notes to the attention of the original writer or writers. From there, they craft a draft of their own using the original script as a kind of source material, then share that draft with the original writers. That way, they can see how things flow and how ideas play out when adjusted. If they like it, great, if not, then they'll just do whatever they want.

Ghost Writing is KIND of a collaboration in and of itself. You do a lot of idea bouncing back and forth and you constantly share scenes to demonstrate how much tighter they can be or how you can get certain ideas across.

Basically, your goal is a Ghost Writer isn't necessarily to get the version of the script YOU want out. But rather, one that is as tight as can be, which no matter how one shapes it, is how EVERY script should be written, because anything less is wasted time. And one that conveys all of the original ideas and elements of what the original writer had in mind, but done in a way that, hopefully, brings those ideas out in more meaningful fashion. Basically, you, as the Ghost Writer, want to make a version of the original writers' script that they will read and LOVE. And if they love what you've done, then you can bet that the spirit of what they were going for is still there, which is ultimately what matters most, if we're talking about the essence of certain writers and directors.

Of course, the only way something like that could work with Kojima and Yano is if this was all long before production. A ghost writer can't do much of anything MEANINGFUL if everything's already been shot. There's no way a studio's going to allow re-shoots for that. And because facial capture is so specific, short of inserting new animation files which won't look as natural as facial capture, once something is shot, it's either used or cut completely. So, unless Kojima and Yano already had a Ghost Writer on board with Death Stranding, it's entirely on them, and depending on how one views their track record, that could either be a good thing or a bad thing.
Khun
Jun 22 2018, 10:20:41 AM
Why do so many people assume that the gameplay of Death Stranding is going to be "solid", at least the equivalent of TPP in terms of complexity? Bear in mind that Death Stranding is about, basically, Kojima having full creative control thus him doing whatever he wants. Why would he care about gameplay (the same thing applies to a so-called "well-written story")? He seems to be more focus on having Hollywood actors be part of this project. DS might be a "playable movie" hence something very different from TPP. Like Psajdak said, DS seems creepy. You can bet that Kojima will not leave you indifferent, and he's certainly not making DS to please you and meet your expectations. I hope that it's going to be memorable.


It's basic expectation as content creators, Khun - When one creates a very finely crafted gameplay experience with intuitive controls and snappy, very responsive gameplay, it's a generally safe assumption that Kojima Productions wouldn't go BACKWARDS and suddenly have more contextual gameplay that feels hands off in contrast to MGSV feeling like the most hands on video game I've played in recent memory.

No MGS game, for example, has ever gone backwards in terms of design. The only PW played like an inferior version of MGS4 was because of its' core hardware limitations. In contrast, Death Stranding is a next-generation only title. MGSV played as well as it did but it was on limited hardware thanks to the mandate of it being available on last-gen consoles as well. That's why what little we've seen of the open world looks so much more inherently 'vibrant' than MGSV's. And in general, based on what little we saw, in terms of gameplay, I got kind of an MGSV meets Breath of the Wild and Silent Hills vibe, at least in terms of basic movement and exploration. You even have that zoom and enhance feature MGSV had when you push down on the joystick.

I don't think Death Stranding will play like MGSV. But I do think in terms of quality, there's no reason to doubt the gameplay won't be anything less than solid precisely because it was Kojima Productions who crafted MGSV's controls and gameplay, and that, to me, demonstrated incredible aptness.
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trimegadon
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Doakes i dont think there is a middle ground for me because i dont think there is something to be changed as far as writing goes. I like it for what it is and i hope for Kojima to keep on delivering all the things he wants with all the freedom he can get. Luckily there are so many good videogame studios right now that are greatly capable on delivering exceptional and diverse narative experiences and as a creative artist myself,i would feel very miserable and egoistic, trying to contain someones vision just to fit my taste.
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The Departed
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Ultimately, I probably just fundamentally don't like the writing in the games.

It's s combination of things tbh. Like I could like a story by Kojima even with iffy dialogue and bullshit plots that don't make sense but the deal breaker is exposition overload. I hate overabundance of exposition. A lil bit here and there is fine. Too much and I feel my eyes glaze over. No matter how it's presented, exposition will never be interesting to me.

And the problem is, that's everything Kojima's ever written.

The combo of that and all the other stuff and I just can't view him as a good writer. And that ends up playing a factor into whether I'm engaged by a story or not.'

Biggest reason V was my favorite in terms of story was because the exposition was, for the most part, optional. But then all these Kojima-decisions come along and jam a rusty oar up my tailpipe anyway lol.

Like don't get me wrong, I'm a filmmaker and content person too and am all for people being expressive and artistically creative or unconventional. But I do think there needs to be a little bit of structure and cohesion. The fact that literally everyone involved is saying, "I have no idea what the fuck," kinda blares a few warning bells in my brain meat.

Maybe I'll just flat out never like a single story Kojima writes. But if the story or characters have their moments, and above all else, if the game is fun, then I won't complain.

For all this talk of how little faith I gave in Dead Steaks' story, if the game is anywhere near as fun as V, it's a 10 outta 10 in my book.
Edited by The Departed, Jun 24 2018, 05:23:02 AM.
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trimegadon
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all out.

As far as death stranding goes and people involved with it making statements that they dont know what is going on and stuff are just playing along with the general conscience that kojima games are hard to get into and whatnot. Its convinient for them also since its an easy way around of not spilling the beans unintentionally.
Tbh for a fan of kojima games its not too difficult to get a basic idea of what this game is about.
Although again, i feel bad for people just getting to know kojima and the first thing they see of him is death stranding. LOL
Edited by trimegadon, Jun 24 2018, 05:29:42 PM.
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Trimegadon you speak my mind bro. Everything you say is what I've been trying to get at to people.
Kojima games are a genre of its own. You simply can't compare it to any other games.
The trailers are even far more unique than any other game trailer.
I can see Norman Reedus character 'Sam's mirroring Venom snakes movement. The spirit of mgs is in Death Stranding which is why I am soo hyped.
Not only is it refreshing to see but its MGS in a more Horror survival genre which has not been done before properly if you exclude MGSurvival.
I simply cannot wait!
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Khun
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Doakes, you are right about about MG. But like you said: it won't probably be like Metal Gear. Plus, like Psajdak said, there's a precedent. You're underestimating Kojima, once again, and assuming things (so you'll fall into all his traps). I'm saying that Kojima is more than capable of tricking you (like he did in the past): there's indeed a familiarity in terms of gameplay, but why assuming that the actual "game" will be like that? You know, he can "sabotage", intentionally, the gameplay (with critics justifying this decision like "he's making a deep statement about the state of the gaming industry"). He could also "innovate" which means that the gameplay might be startling. The "story" could also be, sorry to be vulgar, a big "fuck you" to the audience (with tons of "theories" spreading on the Internet). Then prepared to get "pissed" about DS (because Kojima doesn't care about the Doakes/Departed's safe gameplay/well-written story seal of approval).
Edited by Khun, Jun 24 2018, 12:44:03 PM.
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Psajdak
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I wonder if any character will shit in their pants as a little nod to our old friend Johnny.
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Doakes
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Jun 24 2018, 12:25:05 PM
Doakes, you are right about about MG. But like you said: it won't probably be like Metal Gear. Plus, like Psajdak said, there's a precedent. You're underestimating Kojima, once again, and assuming things (so you'll fall into all his traps). I'm saying that Kojima is more than capable of tricking you (like he did in the past): there's indeed a familiarity in terms of gameplay, but why assuming that the actual "game" will be like that? You know, he can "sabotage", intentionally, the gameplay (with critics justifying this decision like "he's making a deep statement about the state of the gaming industry"). He could also "innovate" which means that the gameplay might be startling. The "story" could also be, sorry to be vulgar, a big "fuck you" to the audience (with tons of "theories" spreading on the Internet). Then prepared to get "pissed" about DS (because Kojima doesn't care about the Doakes/Departed's safe gameplay/well-written story seal of approval).
It COULD be all of those things, Khun - But first and foremost, Kojima fancies himself an innovator of the genre, and he believes Death Stranding will be in a genre all on its' own. Whether he's blowing smoke or has merit to say that, there's little reason to doubt the game will be enjoyable. You're basing the notion that it won't be on Kojima's desire to subvert expectations. But typically, those expectations are within the story. What viable reason would there be to for the subversion to be that the game itself isn't a finely crafted experience? Simply stating that Kojima has a history of subverting expectations just doesn't feel like a proper answer.

Bare in mind, it isn't Kojima himself who makes these games. He's the spearhead, granted, but it's Kojima Productions who craft the video game. And going off of their previous history, after MGSV, they've garnered plenty of good will to trust that they will make a great game here as well. Whether or not it has as much gameplay as MGSV wasn't what I was suggesting. I was simply saying the EXPERIENCE itself would likely be very enjoyable. And I don't see how saying that is at all suggesting that I'm "underestimating Kojima."
trimegadon
Jun 24 2018, 04:11:35 AM
Doakes i dont think there is a middle ground for me because i dont think there is something to be changed as far as writing goes. I like it for what it is and i hope for Kojima to keep on delivering all the things he wants with all the freedom he can get. Luckily there are so many good videogame studios right now that are greatly capable on delivering exceptional and diverse narative experiences and as a creative artist myself,i would feel very miserable and egoistic, trying to contain someones vision just to fit my taste.
I think it's something of a double-edged sword myself, Trimegadon - I've been writing for almost twenty years and in that time, my views on stories and writers in general have always been in favor of creative expression. But I also believe that there needs to be a degree of balance. My problem with Kojima going ALL OUT for any given story is that, while he often has very good ideas, throwing everything into one big pot can result in a mess. I know many may very likely disagree with me, but I feel as though that was the biggest problem for a lot of his previous work.

Now, I do believe that, when it comes to the conventional rules of writing a good story, rules are meant to be broken because if they aren't, things can become stagnant. And I don't want to see a 'tempered Kojima' either, as in the MGS3 or MGS4 Kojima, where he's basically catering to an audience. A big part of why I've always enjoyed MGSV and PW as much as I do is because it's clear that his heart was in both games and that he wanted to do as much as he could to make them different and to throw in as much madness as he could. But that, in turn, kind of falls into some of their larger problems.

I guess the long short of it all is that, I'm all for Kojima being creative and new, and I firmly believe that the Triple A Gaming Industry can use more minds like Kojima's. But I also believe that, first and foremost, the goal should be to tell a good story, and that the artistic, creative merits, should be in service of the story, not the other way around. Of course, that's simply my own perspective. Kojima's a very wide reaching director and writer and as fans of his work and the work of his team, we all have VERY different reasons for appreciating what he and KojiPro do!
Edited by Doakes, Jun 24 2018, 05:52:16 PM.
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Psajdak
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Kojima can definitely make trailers that make game seem more epic and weird than it actually is.

Remember TPP, that trailer with Tretij's illusions, and flaming whale, combined with song by Garbage?

We were all under impression that entire game will be filled with such mumbojumboness, and then when we actually got to play it, only that hospital part was so filmic and bananas, while the rest was rather quiet and ordinary walk through missions - only when Skulls were around was it a little bit weirder and creepier.

Or that Devil's House scene, with victims having earphones in their throats, it really made you wonder what is all of this, but then when vocal cord parasites were revealed, while definitely not something seen before (at least I don't remember similar weapon in fiction), it made enough sense.

Kojima simply have that skill to make things in our head even bigger than they really are, especially antagonists, due to how he directs cutscenes, or even shows gameplay.

I don't think it is coincidence that we were only shown Sam being pulled by those oily fellows, and not even once where he beats any, simply so that those beings remain as menacing and undefeatable as long as possible.
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tonic
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If you ever wondered about chirality, check out of Kojima’s favorite series Breaking Bad S1 E2. Here is the clip:

https://youtu.be/I09jk57QRuM

Interesting! 2 dimensions existing as mirror images of each other but not the same. If that dividing line were to be removed or somehow damage we may be seeing some of the phenomenon in the trailers. Life vs death, past vs future, spirit vs flesh.
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Anyone realised that the map shown of the wartorn city, the icelandic, early primordial, ruined industrial, lush rivers and vegetation, the desolate misty environment and the recurring shoreline landscapes are all the exact same place?
Everytime we see Postman Daryl delivering something the map is the same although it appears to be from a different Era in time vegetation and corrosion wise.
(I'm fascinated and like to read up on geology and i recognised different time periods including what our planets landscape would have been like 2 billion years ago)
Even sam changes from a young short haired man to his 40s.

We know that timefall, the rain, ages stuff and the environment also changes with each death, which doesn't mean death.
I thought that all was pretty unique as fuck.

What type of enemies do you think the game will have. We know there'll be those phantoms, invisible monsters, some giant thing lol, mads and his squad and those skeleton soldiers, tanks and aircraft.
Anymore you think?
Edited by Edgelord, Jun 27 2018, 11:34:38 PM.
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The Departed
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Edgelord

There's giant monster man with tentacles for a head and Maddy Mads.

Tbh, all I give a shit about is that Kads gets a fucking boss fight and doesn't get screwed like Skullster for laughably stupid attempts at being fartsy.
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Khun
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Jun 27 2018, 11:44:34 PM
Tbh, all I give a shit about is that Kads gets a fucking boss fight and doesn't get screwed like Skullster for laughably stupid attempts at being fartsy.
Well, Kojima did succeed since the absence of a boss fight frustrated you.
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The Departed
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He succeeded in making me like the story and its ending a little less.

Great.
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