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Kojima on breast size in DS and how he'll justify it; "HER SKIN NEEDS TO BREATHE GUYS!"
Topic Started: Jan 26 2017, 09:07:16 PM (4,140 Views)
NateDog
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http://www.vg247.com/2017/01/26/kojima-will-take-a-different-approach-to-overly-sexualised-characters/
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In an interview with BBC Radio 1 Newsbeat, Hideo Kojima defended the way female characters have been represented in his games, particularly when it comes to over sexualisation of certain women.

That said, the legendary designer noted that he’s going to “have a different approach for the next game.”

“What I really want to avoid is, like you see in some games, characters with big breasts with no back story,” said Kojima. “If I make characters that at first glance might look like this then they’ll have a deep background story to give a specific reason why.”

Kojima is presumably referring to Quiet, a major character in the recent Metal Gear Solid 5: The Phantom Pain. Quiet was heavily criticised prior to the game’s launch for her choice of clothes, but the designer insisted that it’ll be explained in the game.
Watch this space.
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Stare Roe
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The Baneposter
Jan 23 2018, 10:59:11 PM
The costume diminishes the character.
I'd say you're the real problem here. The way I see it, it says that she's comfy enough with herself to dress that way without caring what others think. If we're gonna impose real life values on fictional characters then it was her choice to dress that way, and you're putting her down for it as a character. Get lost.
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The Baneposter
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Drop the attitude, for starters. Makes you look like a fucking child.

Quiet doesn't choose to be in that ouftit. That's the point. The outfit does not empower her - the game does not make a point to show her as someone who is in tune with her sexuality or a femme fatale - through shitty plot justification, she is put into a terribly designed, juvenile definition of sexy.

She has to show skin to survive. That is not a choice, and the outfit is still at contention with the in game justification. Why does showing skin stipulate a bra two sizes too small and ripped fish net stockings? how come the other female Skulls get away with putting on clothes but Quiet, for some reason, doesn't?

I get it. You can't accept that god emperor Kojima made a mistake - but you're not convincing anyone by being obtuse.
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Doakes
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Here's a better question to ask. Is Quiet's character somehow lessened in any way if she, for example, wore a kind of sneaking suit or something more practical? If so, then how? If not, then why bother with the strange fetish gear? And remember, Quiet went through a number of concept changes. She was once black with an Afro and had a bra which contained her breast but didn't cover her nipples. She was once completely nude, and so on. Each concept piece depicted more strange fetish gear as opposed to contrasting ideas. It was as if it was set in stone that Kojima just wanted some lady in fetish gear as a character. Even the Camouflage Unit, when they went through concept changes, had more practical looks to them in earlier stages.

See, I don't mind skimpy outfits on characters because that doesn't define a character. An actress friend once very famously said, "I don't care if the character I play has a huge rack or not. I care if she's an interesting person." And I agree with that sentiment. I'm not bashful or prude. And Quiet being in skimpy outfits is a concept that could have worked. She's been robbed of her language and she's now one of the Skulls, perhaps, she dresses the way she does to remind herself that she's still a woman; still human. Much like how Skull Face still has his skull to remind him that he still exists. The fetish gear might be much, but showing off so much skin could have a very tangible reason, because it's a way to remind Quiet of her humanity, that even if Skull Face has transformed her into his weapon, she's not like the Skulls.

Instead, nope, she just breathes through her skin, and absorbing water requires a sexy dance. And she'll occasionally stick her butt in the players' face for no other reason than just because. If you don't mind the 'breathing through skin' idea, then that's fine. That's your opinion, and ultimately, nothing anyone says is going to change that. But you can't pretend as though it's entirely unreasonable that MANY others think it's a poor explanation and ultimately undercuts what could be a great character quite needlessly.

On the subject of Death Stranding, if Quiet is any indication, I'm not holding my breath. I LIKE Quiet, but like much of MGSV's narrative and character ideas, it's an example of an excellent idea with a muddled execution.
Edited by Doakes, Jan 24 2018, 06:22:06 PM.
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Stare Roe
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The Baneposter
Jan 24 2018, 05:42:35 PM
Drop the attitude, for starters. Makes you look like a fucking child.

Quiet doesn't choose to be in that ouftit. That's the point. The outfit does not empower her - the game does not make a point to show her as someone who is in tune with her sexuality or a femme fatale - through shitty plot justification, she is put into a terribly designed, juvenile definition of sexy.

She has to show skin to survive. That is not a choice, and the outfit is still at contention with the in game justification. Why does showing skin stipulate a bra two sizes too small and ripped fish net stockings? how come the other female Skulls get away with putting on clothes but Quiet, for some reason, doesn't?

I get it. You can't accept that god emperor Kojima made a mistake - but you're not convincing anyone by being obtuse.
Irony, thy name is The Baneposter.
You asked yourself why Quiet chose to dress in that very specific outfit when it wasn't her only choice of light clothing that would meet her needs. Make your mind up. The fishnet stockings are ripped so she can fucking breathe easier, would you have preferred her to be naked? As for the bra, maybe it was all she could find. I don't imagine going to your local Victoria's Secrets right after you come back from death by immolation as a mutant at the hands of a shadow ops organization is a choice you have. Honestly, there could be many reasons, what, don't you like to use your head?
It's a mistake in YOUR eyes. Boy let me tell you, you're not the center of the universe. To me, you seem much more intolerable and self centered than Kojima ever have.
And the female skulls doesn't have her condition. This is actually explained in the game. If you don't like the reasons given then that is your problem.
I don't get why you have such a problem with sexuality. You seem like a really insecure man who just wants everything to be in line with his sense of right. Too bad that games are not made for you and only you, yeah?
I'll say it again. If you can't get past how she looks then you're just as bad as you're making others out to be.
And you're not convincing anybody by acting like an insecure SJW who throws insults around when people call him out.
And yes, Kojima obviously likes bit tits in video games. Why the fuck does people even want him to say it when it's so damn obvious? Also, what the hell is wrong with liking big tits in video games? This shit is exactly what I mean about the west having massive issues while Japan just embraces it. Yes, Kojima designed her that way because it looks sexy. Woop de fucking do, when did you figure that out lol.
From Quiet's point of view it makes perfect sense as to why she has to dress so lightly.

PS: Using condescending images immediately puts you at a level of immaturity that I wouldn't want to touch with a ten foot internet pole. Seriously, grow up.

Doakes, personally I am fine with the whole breathing through her skin part. The way I see it, the way she handles her condition, both in how it affects her physiologically and in appearance, is part of what makes her an interesting character. Imagine being in her situation, how would you handle it? The way she handles it is with a great amount of adaptation and lack of the embarrassment you'd expect, which I think speaks of a pragmatic mindset. The lack of something can say just as much as the opposite, which people seem to forget over and over.
Going with what you suggested, that it was to remind herself of her own humanity, would have been but another mental aspect instead. Not saying one is better than the other but I think it's okay.
Edited by Stare Roe, Jan 24 2018, 06:50:27 PM.
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NateDog
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Doakes
Jan 24 2018, 06:21:10 PM
Here's a better question to ask. Is Quiet's character somehow lessened in any way if she, for example, wore a kind of sneaking suit or something more practical? If so, then how? If not, then why bother with the strange fetish gear? And remember, Quiet went through a number of concept changes. She was once black with an Afro and had a bra which contained her breast but didn't cover her nipples. She was once completely nude, and so on. Each concept piece depicted more strange fetish gear as opposed to contrasting ideas. It was as if it was set in stone that Kojima just wanted some lady in fetish gear as a character. Even the Camouflage Unit, when they went through concept changes, had more practical looks to them in earlier stages.

See, I don't mind skimpy outfits on characters because that doesn't define a character. An actress friend once very famously said, "I don't care if the character I play has a huge rack or not. I care if she's an interesting person." And I agree with that sentiment. I'm not bashful or prude. And Quiet being in skimpy outfits is a concept that could have worked. She's been robbed of her language and she's now one of the Skulls, perhaps, she dresses the way she does to remind herself that she's still a woman; still human. Much like how Skull Face still has his skull to remind him that he still exists. The fetish gear might be much, but showing off so much skin could have a very tangible reason, because it's a way to remind Quiet of her humanity, that even if Skull Face has transformed her into his weapon, she's not like the Skulls.

Instead, nope, she just breathes through her skin, and absorbing water requires a sexy dance. And she'll occasionally stick her butt in the players' face for no other reason than just because. If you don't mind the 'breathing through skin' idea, then that's fine. That's your opinion, and ultimately, nothing anyone says is going to change that. But you can't pretend as though it's entirely unreasonable that MANY others think it's a poor explanation and ultimately undercuts what could be a great character quite needlessly.

On the subject of Death Stranding, if Quiet is any indication, I'm not holding my breath. I LIKE Quiet, but like much of MGSV's narrative and character ideas, it's an example of an excellent idea with a muddled execution.


In addition to all of this, Kojima said himself before TPP's release that he told Shinkawa to design her "more erotic" in order to sell more merchandise and so that she would be cosplayed more. There's no need to be offended at people not liking this, Kojima has hardly made a case for himself when it comes to Quiet.
Watch this space.
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The Departed
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Stare-Roe

Let's please cool it with the antagonism. You can disagree with someone without having a hostile attitude about it, that's not what's needed in any given discussion. So if this topic is to continue, everyone needs to be civil, and you need to please stop with the attitude.

As for the topic, I could give a shit. Dead Steaks' story is gonna be ass, and I could care less. I just want the game to be at least half as fun as V for Vegemite is, and for Maddy Mads to not get screwed the way Skullster was, and given an actual boss battle with a badass Ludvig Forssell boss theme.
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Stare Roe
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Jan 24 2018, 06:55:37 PM
Stare-Roe

Let's please cool it with the antagonism. You can disagree with someone without having a hostile attitude about it, that's not what's needed in any given discussion. So if this topic is to continue, everyone needs to be civil, and you need to please stop with the attitude.

As for the topic, I could give a shit. Dead Steaks' story is gonna be ass, and I could care less. I just want the game to be at least half as fun as V for Vegemite is, and for Maddy Mads to not get screwed the way Skullster was, and given an actual boss battle with a badass Ludvig Forssell boss theme.
I do hope this also applies to the guy who called me a dense motherfucker through the use of a retarded image...
But yeah, don't want this to totally blow up. That's why I said that this topic was not worth pushing. Turns out I was right, who wuda thunk?
As for DS's story, I'm just gonna wait and see.
NateDog, what I don't get is why people want Kojima to admit that he likes curvy women in his games. I mean, he obviously does, it's been obvious since MGS1, really. The only thing that would change if he said it to the public is that those who are waiting to put a nail in his rep for saying it would be able to do so. I don't blame him for trying to dodge that, and I think most people have figured this out already.
With all this said, why did you even decide to spark this pointless debacle to life again to begin with? I don't really get it.
There's also no need to get offended at people defending it. The way I see it, you can either accept it and move on or waste time going on about it. Kojima designed Quiet this way because it's sexy. Bam.
Edited by Stare Roe, Jan 24 2018, 08:06:17 PM.
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The Baneposter
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Stare Roe
Jan 24 2018, 06:28:33 PM
Irony, thy name is The Baneposter.
You asked yourself why Quiet chose to dress in that very specific outfit when it wasn't her only choice of light clothing that would meet her needs. Make your mind up. The fishnet stockings are ripped so she can fucking breathe easier, would you have preferred her to be naked? As for the bra, maybe it was all she could find. I don't imagine going to your local Victoria's Secrets right after you come back from death by immolation as a mutant at the hands of a shadow ops organization is a choice you have. Honestly, there could be many reasons, what, don't you like to use your head?
It's a mistake in YOUR eyes. Boy let me tell you, you're not the center of the universe. To me, you seem much more intolerable and self centered than Kojima ever have.
And the female skulls doesn't have her condition. This is actually explained in the game. If you don't like the reasons given then that is your problem.
I don't get why you have such a problem with sexuality. You seem like a really insecure man who just wants everything to be in line with his sense of right. Too bad that games are not made for you and only you, yeah?
I'll say it again. If you can't get past how she looks then you're just as bad as you're making others out to be.
And you're not convincing anybody by acting like an insecure SJW who throws insults around when people call him out.
And yes, Kojima obviously likes bit tits in video games. Why the fuck does people even want him to say it when it's so damn obvious? Also, what the hell is wrong with liking big tits in video games? This shit is exactly what I mean about the west having massive issues while Japan just embraces it. Yes, Kojima designed her that way because it looks sexy. Woop de fucking do, when did you figure that out lol.
From Quiet's point of view it makes perfect sense as to why she has to dress so lightly.

PS: Using condescending images immediately puts you at a level of immaturity that I wouldn't want to touch with a ten foot internet pole. Seriously, grow up.
I didn't pick the username, for starters. Weak.

Her being completely naked would actually be better, yes. Wearing that outfit because she wants to would be better, yes. This is what you fail to grasp, either on purpose or again - you just don't get it; but no one has an issue with a character showing skin or being sexy. The outfit would be fine if she wore it when you fight her but when she joins up with DD who have the tech and resources your excuse doesn't add up.

Not to mention that if you want to get technical about this, if Quiet breathes - she can breath through her face, hands, etc, pores all over the human body. She won't choke because her fishnet don't have strategically placed rips all over.

I never claimed to be the center of the universe. Never said my opinion is fact. If you want to pretend that I said that because you have no argument, your call bro but that's on you.

Pretty sure it isn't explained. Quiet had her lungs burned out and was treated with parasites but they're just like her. Same condition/abilities and everything.

Quote:
 
This shit is exactly what I mean about the west having massive issues while Japan just embraces it.

ahh...
so you're one of those, then


You keep arguing against a ghost and characterizing me in a really strange way. How many times must I mention that I have no issue with sexy characters? characters like Triss and Yennefer from The Witcher, Morrigan from Dragon Age, Mona Sax from Max Payne are all great, sensual/sexual female characters and they're great because it's written into their character rather than jumping around convoluted loopholes to justify shitty fishnet stockings. why can't you grasp the difference between an objectified character and one who embraces her sexuality? Double funny points for using the term SJW unironically, boy you sure showed me!

Lool are you really arguing that from Quiet's point of view she is comfortable almost being burned to death and brought to life through the use of invasive parasites?

I mean, nothing I could say or do will pull your head out of the sand so go ahead and keep believing that Kojima senpai is a grand genius and that Quiet is the pinnacle of female video game character design. Won't wake me up at night or anything.

It's not condescending if it's true. ^_^
Edited by The Baneposter, Jan 24 2018, 08:18:20 PM.
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Jassassino
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Stare Roe
Jan 24 2018, 03:24:38 PM
The Baneposter
Jan 23 2018, 10:59:11 PM
The costume diminishes the character.
I'd say you're the real problem here. The way I see it, it says that she's comfy enough with herself to dress that way without caring what others think. If we're gonna impose real life values on fictional characters then it was her choice to dress that way, and you're putting her down for it as a character. Get lost.
It wasn't her choice. It was the developers. Looooool.
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The Baneposter
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also the shower scene. the shower scene is when i know any and all pretense of there being genuine justification for her design was thrown out the window.
Edited by The Baneposter, Jan 24 2018, 08:24:25 PM.
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Jassassino
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Stare Roe
Jan 24 2018, 07:45:21 PM
I do hope this also applies to the guy who called me a dense motherfucker through the use of a retarded image...
Certainly not a nice use of the term 'retarded'. Perhaps you should take my member title's advice.

Going back to the point you made earlier about her being deliberately seductive in a "shy" way, that's not only generally quite creepy but it's only there because the game is designed to appeal effectively to the target market of young, heterosexual males, just the same as for the content of the infamous MGS3 Boob Zooms. These aren't good things and alienate and isolate other potential markets in order to maximise another. These also aren't clever, subtle or intriguing character traits which create compelling characters either. They're the result of misogyny on an industrial scale.
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The Departed
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Stare-Roe

It applies to everyone, but I'm addressing you because you were the one who started this more hostile affair when you posted this:

http://mgsforums.com/single/?p=11106940&t=9018562

Until then, it's a disagreement, but things are mostly civil. Baneposter's harsher tone was only addressed towards Kojima because he didn't agree with the idea.

I'm saying everyone chill, but I'm addressing you specifically because in this instance, you were the one who bumped this near year old thread, and were the one instigating hostility in that post and every subsequent post by making it personal, whether you see it or not.
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The Baneposter
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Tbh the boob zooms in MGS3 didn't bother me as much because of Eva's archetype. It makes Quiet even more infuriating because Kojima has done that type of character far better before.
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The Departed
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That's the key difference. Eva is the temptress. Quiet, at no point in the main story cutscenes, ever comes off that way. She's just an enigma with badass powers. It's only in optional scenes that anything sexual pops up, and that only makes this whole thing even more jarring tbh.
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Stare Roe
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All I really see from you two is being obnoxious about your point of views not being revered here.
That and I'm not even entirely sure what either of you are saying at times. Quiet could have chosen many different styles of sufficiently light clothing but went for what we see. From the point of view of the character it was her choice, and I respect that. I don't ask characters, real of fictional, to be anything else but themselves to appease me.
And yes, she would be able to breathe without the ripped leggings. If you actually pay attention then you notice that I never said she wouldn't. I said she breathes EASIER. I can breathe with somebody holding their hand over my mouth but I'm sure not gonna feel good about it.
No, the female skulls are not the same. Way to make arguments without being informed. The parasite they have is literally what constructs their gear. That's how the armor skulls can grow additional protective layers. It's how they materialize weapons out of nowhere. The parasite covers them, that's why it's called the one that covers.
Quiet had her epidermis burnt away. Unlike the female skulls, she underwent parasite therapy. They literally replaced everything that holds her body together. The only other person to have undergone this is Code Talker, which again is mentioned in the game. tldr, the female skulls do not breathe through their skin because they didn't have their skin and epidermis burnt away.
And to be honest, you guys are the ones objectifying Quiet. I still say she seems simply comfortable in her own body, and if you find the mix of shy and yet seductive with trusted people creepy then I don't know what to say. Get out more? Because last I checked, not being reserved with people you feel comfy with is perfectly normal.
As for the shower scene, it's obviously not even meant to be taken seriously. Not in or out of the game.
Imo, to them it was just a funny thing that happened, and to me, it was just the game being shameless in a way that I genuinely found amusing.
Jassassino, you know damn well that when I said Quiet chose her own style of sufficiently light outfit I meant from the point of view of the character. No need to make yourself look stupid. Also, that image truly was retarded. I mean, who even does that sort of nonsense nowadays? What is this, 4chan back in 2005 or something?
The Baneposter, the super irony here is that you keep assuming I revere Kojima. I don't, never said I do, I just don't find reason to fault him for this particular thing. But thanks for preaching while also assuming. Saves me the trouble of having to call you out.
Well, this travesty did not need to happen imo. This thread does not need to happen. Nothing is objectively wrong with Quiet. I have seen both sides of the coin and we're all better off for just moving past it.
To show that I mean it I am done posting in this thread now. Go ahead and write some pointless "counter argument" if you wanna yell at the TV so badly, but I'm done. This is stupid.

PS: The Departed, I did not bump this thread. I wouldn't even post in it if it didn't make it's way back up to the top some days ago, and it certainly wasn't because of me. I am absolutely fine if it just dies forever. Better that way.
Edited by Stare Roe, Jan 24 2018, 08:44:43 PM.
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The Baneposter
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Stare Roe
Jan 24 2018, 08:41:19 PM
All I really see from you two is being obnoxious about your point of views not being revered here.
That and I'm not even entirely sure what either of you are saying at times. Quiet could have chosen many different styles of sufficiently light clothing but went for what we see. From the point of view of the character it was her choice, and I respect that. I don't ask characters, real of fictional, to be anything else but themselves to appease me.
And yes, she would be able to breathe without the ripped leggings. If you actually pay attention then you notice that I never said she wouldn't. I said she breathes EASIER. I can breathe with somebody holding their hand over my mouth but I'm sure not gonna feel good about it.
No, the female skulls are not the same. Way to make arguments without being informed. The parasite they have is literally what constructs their gear. That's how the armor skulls can grow additional protective layers. It's how they materialize weapons out of nowhere. The parasite covers them, that's why it's called the one that covers.
Quiet had her epidermis burnt away. Unlike the female skulls, she underwent parasite therapy. They literally replaced everything that holds her body together. The only other person to have undergone this is Code Talker, which again is mentioned in the game. tldr, the female skulls do not breathe through their skin because they didn't have their skin and epidermis burnt away.
And to be honest, you guys are the ones objectifying Quiet. I still say she seems simply comfortable in her own body, and if you find the mix of shy and yet seductive with trusted people creepy then I don't know what to say. Get out more? Because last I checked, not being reserved with people you feel comfy with is perfectly normal.
As for the shower scene, it's obviously not even meant to be taken seriously. Not in or out of the game.
Imo, to them it was just a funny thing that happened, and to me, it was just the game being shameless in a way that I genuinely found amusing.
Jassassino, you know damn well that when I said Quiet chose her own style of sufficiently light outfit I meant from the point of view of the character. No need to make yourself look stupid. Also, that image truly was retarded. I mean, who even does that sort of nonsense nowadays? What is this, 4chan back in 2005 or something?
The Baneposter, the super irony here is that you keep assuming I revere Kojima. I don't, never said I do, I just don't find reason to fault him for this particular thing. But thanks for preaching while also assuming. Saves me the trouble of having to call you out.
Well, this travesty did not need to happen imo. This thread does not need to happen. Nothing is objectively wrong with Quiet. I have seen both sides of the coin and we're all better off for just moving past it.
To show that I mean it I am done posting in this thread now. Go ahead and write some pointless "counter argument" if you wanna yell at the TV so badly, but I'm done. This is stupid.

PS: The Departed, I did not bump this thread. I wouldn't even post in it if it didn't make it's way back up to the top some days ago, and it certainly wasn't because of me. I am absolutely fine if it just dies forever. Better that way.
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i'm sorry. i couldn't resist, i'll play nice now.
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Stare Roe
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You're just proving that I'm right about you. Anyways, enough of this. Good bye you manchild.
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Jassassino
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Lol.
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The Departed
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Stare-Roe

A bump means you're posting in an old irrelevant topic.

Bumping happens when you post in a thread older than a month. The last post before yours was from February 2017. So you bumped a near year old thread but the subject was no longer being discussed. That's what I mean when I say you were the one who bumped this thread.
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Edgelord
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Isn't quiets appearance just down to Japanese culture?
Isn't every women in every single Japanese game overly sexist with revealing clothes?
Isn't there sex shops located right next to schools and women dressed like underage schoolkids the main searched porn videos over there?
Might be cringey to us but its normal in japan.

Quiets appearance is absolutely sexist in western culture and theres no other way. Kojima made her that way for cosplay

I loved quiets character and thought she was a badass but I'll admit it is cringey as fuck. After defending her pre release, I eat my own words after playing it.
BEFORE THY BECOMES SALTY WITH THE TEARS OF BEING OFFENDED.
BEHOLD THE FIELD IN WHICH I GROW MY FUCKS TO GIVE.
LAY THINE EYES UPON IT AND SEE THAT IT IS BARREN
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