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Unnecessary MGS2 hate
Topic Started: Sep 16 2017, 04:55:33 PM (4,095 Views)
Daniel89
Light Infantry
Why do people hate on this game? I've been playing it a lot recently in the HD collection. Having a lot of fun doing the multiple playthroughs to get the dog tags on each difficulty to unlock the stealth suits, bandana and wig. It's one of my all time favourite games. Is it because people don't like Raiden? Or running around the big shell?

It's a great game with a lot of reply value
Edited by Daniel89, Sep 16 2017, 04:59:14 PM.
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Ef9 o shea
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Hadoken

Its more nitpicks than hate and tbh i am one who didn't like raiden, but overall really enjoyed mgs2

the-departed will school you on this i am sure :D
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Doakes
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Well, Daniel89 - Speaking as someone who, in 2001, stopped liking Metal Gear outright because of MGS2, it isn't JUST Raiden, or just because "I didn't get MGS2," as my roommate at the time constantly insisted. :P

Big Shell is my biggest GAMEPLAY complaint about MGS2. I don't personally consider it a good map with good level design, nor does it do enough to differentiate itself from Shadow Moses, making the sneaking feel largely similar between MGS1 and MGS2, only more refined in MGS2, thanks to much better gameplay. A good sneaking game needs good level design, and, in my opinion, Big Shell is anything but. Each corridor is too basic or underguarded, making the most viable and ideal approach just knocking everyone out and running to the end of the corridor. The few corridors that made sneaking undetected viable were simply too easy to be rewarding. And when that's where the majority of the game takes place, something's wrong. It doesn't help when you have the single most tedious escort that I've ever encountered in a video game to date added on top of that, which lasts far longer than it has any right to last, and ends with her dead anyway!

The Extra Missions play better because the VR Locations are actually more well designed than the actual Big Shell. But then, my question is, why on Earth weren't those corridor designs used in the MAIN game? Why should the extra content be more enjoyable than the main content? And the drawback is that the VR Missions use forced stealth, which I hate in gaming, regardless of context.

As for its' mere seven boss fights, I LOVED the fight against Fatman, and thought the fights against Solidus and Olga were solid. They were all functional, and Fatman serves as the one true dungeon boss of any Metal Gear game, while putting its' new mechanics to the test very well. But I was either completely indifferent to certain bosses, such as RAY or the Harrier, or outright annoyed by them, such as Fortune and Vamp. Fortune, because her boss fights consists of looking really cool and not doing much of anything to really test the player, and Vamp because he's not functional as a boss fight. He moves faster than your first person view aim allows you to trail, meaning the fight starts to drag because you can't keep up with him, jumping from rail to rail.

The reason I will always MGS3 a VASTLY better game than MGS2 is because even if the gameplay is near identical, minus a few improvements, and a few things that DON'T mesh too well, is because the sneaking and moment-to-moment gameplay is vastly different from what came before it. The Jungle might not be open, but it does enough to give the player different means to sneak around, as well as give them more varied paths to take down their linear journey. Even if the games' story is largely following the same storybeats as MGS1, it doesn't feel like I'm playing MGS1 again. Playing MGS2, that's exactly how I felt, only I wasn't as engaged. And the reason for that falls squarely on the story.

The STORY is a whole other mess. It collapses under its' own convoluted plot twists for the sake of a meta narrative that doesn't work in the context of the game, or have any kind of meaningful payoff. I found it incredibly pretentious when it had no right to be, because MGS2 likes to ACT smart without actually being smart. I say that because it spent *arguably wasted* a lot of time TALKING about major themes without really doing anything substantial with them. The net result a lot of REALLY boring exposition being dumped onto me every six minutes, sometimes, repeating itself because Kojima does not trust his audience to be intelligent enough to read between the lines. So, he needs to not only spell every boring detail out, but do so repeatedly to ensure us dummies know what he's trying to convey in his tangled mess of a story.

Selection for Societal Sanity is an excellent idea, and one that would've made for an amazing game, if the entirety of MGS2 didn't build towards something else completely. Whether Kojima or fans like it or not, MGS2 IS a Solid Snake Simulator. That's what the entire journey of Big Shell is building towards, and the only twist that makes any actual sense within the context of the game. If it was going to be Societal Sanity, then Big Shell and Dead Cell didn't need to be reminiscent of Shadow Moses and Foxhound. The game didn't need to be one series of callbacks to MGS1, because that robs the sequel of a chance to do something truly unique, which MGS3 excelled at, even if its' story was underdeveloped and by-the-numbers.

MGS2 is a lot of telling, with very little showing. Every exposition-crazed supporting character talks and talk and TALKS, but little to none of what they talk about is ever actually explored visually or in-game to provide any meaningful context. We're told Raiden is struggling, a rookie, then a child soldier, but from start to finish, he always come off as the baby faced brat pouting about his situation while always doing his job without any bit of problem. There's zero context to show he's struggling, or that he's any less efficient than Snake, or that he is even remotely damaged from his past, because even when the truth is revealed, he still acts like the exact same guy we've come to know, and outside of one random codec call with Rose where Raiden says that he's having fun with the mayhem, there's never anything that hints that he's this psychologically broken young man. Solidus talks about freedom and liberty at the very end, but none of what came before informs on his motivation. Every scene with him on the Big Shell is just him being "the bad guy." He does just as much pruning on as Liquid Snake, only he does it without the deliciously hammy accent, and then, AFTER the fact, he's supposedly this misunderstood fighter of Liberation, despite the game doing nothing with that information. And there's the fact that almost every cutscene is just a means to dump exposition. It's why quite literally half of MGS2's cutscenes are codec calls.

Exposition in writing is a necessary evil in stories like this, but you use it sparsely to get the necessary information that you can't visualize out. It's always supposed to be kept to a minimum in any story, regardless of genre. It's NEVER supposed to be the PRIMARY means of conveying plot. This is a problem in almost every MGS game, but MGS2 took it to a whole new level, with MGS3 and MGS4 coming VERY close to matching it at points.

I appreciate the bravado it took Kojima to plan a game that took as many risks as it did, but all I ever care about is the end result, not the concept. Kojima swapped out a really great protagonist for a really dull protagonist, and made Snake himself less human by turning him into this one note pseudo-philosophical type who repeats the same sentiment multiple times, whose human moments are far too few in between. He created a story that criticizes typical sequels, but because it's a video game, it's not a subversion, because we're playing that very sequel Kojima criticizes, and doing very little to subvert those expectations.

The long short of it all is that MGS2 is not a bad game, and sixteen years later, I don't HATE it. I just don't like it. Not as a Metal Gear game, not as a video game, and not as an intelligent story. I can play it no problem because it does enough right to keep the game from feeling like a chore when I'm not holding Emma's hand, but I'm not invested or REALLY engaged when I play. I've come to appreciate its' relevance, because sixteen years later, its' themes are somehow MORE relevant than they were when this game first came out, but those themes are not the game itself or its' story. They're merely topics the game took the time to talk about, and compelling as those topics might have been, it would've done MGS2 a world of good to actually contextualize those topics in the actual game.

And I'll concede that its' bonus content, if nothing else, provides enough incentive to come back to MGS2 more than, say, MGS4. And its' campaign at least has SOMEWHAT more consistency in its' quality than MGS4 and I'll even say MGS1, since it doesn't throw stealth out the window for the entire second half the way MGS1 does. But this game is easily my least favorite Metal Gear game in the entire series, one I don't hate so much as I resent. And one that will forever be regarded as both a massive wasted opportunity and probably the most disappointed that I've ever been playing a video game.
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The Departed
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ef9-o-shea

Nah, I don't hate MGS2 no more. Main game sucks but Alt Missions, VR and Snake Tales make up for it.

I hate MGS1 tho.
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Ef9 o shea
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Hadoken

Wow lol thats a switch ha ha but cool buddy

Only game in the series i loathe is snake's revenge

Even mgs mobile on the n-gage was better than that abomination
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Daniel89
Light Infantry
Looks like I'm the only one on this forum who likes MGS2. I loved it. The tanker mission at the start was awesome. I won't lie I would've preferred to play as Snake for the whole game but I don't mind Raiden that much. The only parts in the game that are annoying is Rose who nags you about what day it is tomorrow/April 30th everytime you call her to save the game, the EE escort mission especially the underwater section and defusing the bombs otherwise it's a great game. I like seeing Liquid gradually taking over Ocelots body too. Great game I have no major issues with it
The Departed
Sep 16 2017, 08:02:57 PM
ef9-o-shea<br /><br />Nah, I don't hate MGS2 no more. Main game sucks but Alt Missions, VR and Snake Tales make up for it.<br /><br />I hate MGS1 tho.
You hate MGS1!!!!???
Edited by Daniel89, Sep 16 2017, 10:08:46 PM.
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Doakes
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Actually, Daniel89 - Most on this forum LOVE MGS2. I'm in the minority who flat out do not like MGS2 whatsoever. If the game as a whole maintained the same quality of level design as the Tanker area, or if Arsenal has more than a single corridors worth of sneaking, I would probably think upon it more fondly and wouldn't mind its' convoluted mess of a story. As it stands, however, I just flat out CAN'T like MGS2, nor do I consider it anything resembling intellectual storytelling.
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The Baneposter
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Most people retrospectively enjoy MGS2. I appreciate it for what it tries to say but it really comes down to weather you value message over actual story, plot and structure.

The way I see it all MGS games are a fucking mess of janky writing so at least MGS2 tries to say something important with said janky writing.
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The Departed
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Daniel89

I just don't think MGS1 is a good stealth game or a good action game, and I don't think its story is even remotely good.
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Duck as sake no bidibgeybfbfhailhydradrinkn:(

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r.i.p. to the coolest dude we'll ever know :gary:
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Daniel89
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The Departed
Sep 17 2017, 12:27:55 AM
Daniel89

I just don't think MGS1 is a good stealth game or a good action game, and I don't think its story is even remotely good.
lol really? In my opinion MGS1 is the greatest game ever made
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sadistic_greyfox
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I'd say on this forum MGS2 love is the minority, most think it's "ok" but it doesn't rank as their top mgs game. MGS2 did things story wise that's pretty unconventional when it comes to storytelling in a video game. Personally I look at it as a work or art. It draws various emotions from those who've played it. Personally I love the idea of it all being some fucked up simulation and Hero Worship woes and the lost of our rights. I like that you can theorize alot more about mgs2 than anything that's spoon fed to you in other mgs games. Hell I even liked Solidus as a bad guy, challenging the patriots head on. Very unethically his means but he was looking to destroy their system.

Gameplay wise i still enjoy it alot. I still have a blast holding up most soldiers for their dogtags which i think is actually against the Geneva convention, lol. it was the last game in the series to really do fixed camera angles and not feel restritive imo.
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Psajdak
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I had some problems with MGS2, but all in all, I love its story and gameplay enough that I played it who knows how many times.

And as much as Solid Snake is cool, I am happy that Raiden happened, especially due to how amazing he ended up by the time of MGRR.
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Khun
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Doakes,
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The STORY is a whole other mess

How so, compared to the other games of the franchise? Also, MGS2 is arguably the most important entry of the series (with the introduction of The Patriots). Furthermore, the gameplay was a major improvement compared to MGS1.

About Solid Snake, to be honest, he was always dull and uninteresting (nothing more than a tool of The Patriots and a killing machine). I find him more human and interesting: he's a terrorist, in MGS2 and at least stood up for something ("Philanthropy" with Otacon) even if he was a nihilist (according to Weedle_McHairybug) for the speech he gave to Raiden.

About the S3 Plan: well, it was an ambitious project (more than just a "Solid Snake Simulation"). Also, bear in mind that it was a success (every characters, inlcluding Raiden, were muppets).

About the "meta": we aren't in 2001 anymore. I mean, don't get me wrong, it is the first MGS game I ever played (and so I'm very fond of it) but I think the game has actually nothing to do with "meta" (the game isn't that pretentious). For example, Raiden isn't the player but an actual character; also the events did happened, MGS4 confirmed it (so it wasn't an illusion nor a VR simulation).
Edited by Khun, Sep 18 2017, 01:13:15 PM.
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Edgelord
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It's just a hate it or love it game. I love it some hate it. Just the way things are I guess.
BEFORE THY BECOMES SALTY WITH THE TEARS OF BEING OFFENDED.
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LAY THINE EYES UPON IT AND SEE THAT IT IS BARREN
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black king
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...Burger King?

I don't hate MGS2 but it does have some problems.

The Big Shell is boring, the Codec rings off the hook with stuff that doesn't build anything plot or character-wise, bomb defusing and EE's escort/swim were monotonous.

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KingOfNeverland
Not so lonely anymore...

I think it is just my favorite game in the series, mostly because I played through it like a million times and still jump in again every year or so. If you count the VR missions and extra Substance modes, it also has enough content to last for months, and unlike TPP it doesn't get boring as fast.
mgs player since '99.country of origin:portugal.
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The Departed
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The extra shit is definitely what made me stop outright hating MGS2. I thought some of the VR missions, a lot of the Alt Missions, and a couple of Snake Tales had a lotta replay value, and just around played better than the main game.

I still think the actual main game of MGS2 is dogshit for about 70% of the game, but because HD Edition has the bonus shit, then ultimately, there's way more hours of legit enjoyable gameplay to sink my chompers into without being bogged down by an asinine story. I still prefer TPP and MGS3, but MGS2 has way more going for it than MGS1, MGS4, PW and GZ.

Hell, I actually really like Revengers, and I'll say MGS2 has way more content to warrant coming back to than Revengeancing, just not in its' single player.
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Psajdak
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@ The Departed: What did you think about Tanker chapter?
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The Departed
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Psajdak

Tanker is the best part of MGS2, and I wish Big Shell was as well designed tbh. And that Arsenal was a lot longer than it ultimately was.
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Dirty Duck
 
Duck as sake no bidibgeybfbfhailhydradrinkn:(

awards and such

r.i.p. to the coolest dude we'll ever know :gary:
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sadistic_greyfox
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I really don't understand the hate at all tbh. I mean sure Keiv gave your reasons but i completely disagree with most of them. Personally I think MGS2 really was a stepping stone for gaming on consoles, Crammed with details, for me as a 14yr old playing that game it was like a murder sandbox for me. I really love the simulation aspect of the game too, but I am a big fan of that type of story telling. The codecs with Rose can get a bit tedious to listen to, i agree on that but tbh, but for a diehard like me I really enjoy ev very aspect of it in some way. games jsut werent made like mgs2 back in the day and still to this day in certain regards.

I will admit though, after I played mgs3 that was my favorite for a while, especially because of MGO. Around the time when mgs4 was being released and they release the "Essential Collection" I came back to MGS2 with a new perspective. I really do love Ocelots' double cross, experiencing "Mr.X", A.I. freaking out, Fucking VAMP. I think it was the first and last game in the series that tried to directly connecting to the player's world. the final Dialogue between Raiden and the AI i can listen to that every time without skipping. I just think it spoke alot more to me as a late teen, early 20's.

I just don't see Eye to eye on the gameplay stuff at all. With the exception of escorting Emma around but even then the patrolling soldier are easy to dispatch, it all comes down to the slog of having to drag her around. I mean that's fair, everyone will have differing opinions, All I can speak for is myself and my experiences and if i had 5 games on my list that i'd have to say were my fav of all time mgs2 is definitely on it.

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