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Should Metal Gear Solid 5 have been made?
Yes 10 (66.7%)
No 0 (0%)
Peacewalker should have been MGS5 1 (6.7%)
MGS4 should have been the last one 4 (26.7%)
Total Votes: 15
Should Metal Gear Solid 5 have been made?
Topic Started: Jan 4 2018, 08:02:53 PM (1,974 Views)
BigBoss>SolidSnake
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I'm genuinely intrigued to understand the general consensus on whether or not MGS5 should have been made. Personally speaking, while I do appreciate MGS5 for what it is, it does not feel like a MGS game to me and I feel like the lore it adds and the story that it tells ad very little to the overall saga minus a convoluted plot twist; which I must say I do appreciate and like in many ways, but just feels unnecessary.

In my personal opinion, the saga should have finished at MGS4, but I also do feel like Peacewalker should have been MGS5; it's story is so much better than the MGS5 we got in my opinion - it still feels like a MGS game to me.

I am aware that Konami pressured Kojima into making more and more entrys to the saga and he wanted to finish it countless times. I feel that MGS4 or MGS5: PEACEWALKER was the ending the saga deserved.
Edited by BigBoss>SolidSnake, Jan 4 2018, 08:05:39 PM.
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black king
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...Burger King?

The story really finished in MGS4. If they had to make a game inbetween MGS3 and MG, I wish they'd have just given more love and scope to PO. I think it had a fun cast of characters that could have led to something great, if given more to work with. Expand Campbell's role, give Big Boss more leader like scenes like he had with John, give some more for Gene, Cunningham, and the rest of FOX to work with, etc.

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Dirty Duck
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Yeah its a good game \_(:/)_/
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Ef9 o shea
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Keeping this short my answer is yes
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The Departed
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Short answer? Fuck yes

Long answer? To anyone who says it didn't add to the lore? Sure. And on that exact same note, you didn't need any of the Biggie trilogy since no matter what, he becomes Mr. yay-war-orphans.

Besides, it's only "not MGS" in the sense that it didn't have the same camp. So what? Gameplay was more MGS than MGS game to date.

Let's see you assassinate Russian Commandos with horse poop in MGS2.
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The Departed
Jan 4 2018, 09:09:11 PM
Let's see you assassinate Russian Commandos with horse poop in MGS2.
Still haven't tried that.


It should have been done right but yes. If we go by that, should MGS3 have been made? Or MGS4 and even 2.

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Doakes
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This is what's referred to as a 'Rabbit Hole' problem. It's a prospect aimed at one particular instance of a series because that's the instance that proves most polarizing and one people conveniently like to say is ultimately unnecessary compared to what came before. And like a Rabbit Hole, once you go down that road, you just go deeper and deeper.

Strictly speaking, MGSV shows the byproduct of Big Boss' particular brand of more nuanced villainy, as opposed to outright psychosis like many seemed to expect. It proved that power corrupts, and that Big Boss is just as big a hypocrite as the people he's fought. And that was a very important element towards cementing the fact that Big Boss truly is not a hero.

With that said, the series could have ended with Peace Walker no problem! After all, seeing Big Boss do what he did in GZ, and allowing what happened in MGSV to take place isn't technically necessary, because PW already established that Big Boss has decided, if the times demand it, he and his men will sell their souls and resort to less than savory actions to stay alive. "This is Outer Heaven" were the final lines of PW, cementing all of that, and the Big Boss saga COULD have ended then and there. After all, we don't need to SEE Big Boss doing what he promised when we have the information to put two and two together.

At the same time, PW is ALSO unnecessary, because MGS3 exists, and the very end of MGS3 establishes that Big Boss has become disillusioned with his country, with his idea of loyalty and patriotism. And that final scene is an easy lead in to one day, forty or so years later, Big Boss becoming a monster. All monsters are born somewhere and Big Boss' descent started the day he learned the truth. We quite honest didn't need PW OR MGSV because MGS3 painted the broad strokes we needed.

Only, here's the problem. We didn't NEED those broad strokes either. And we didn't need MGS3. All Snake Eater does is show us that Big Boss wasn't always a monster, and that he was once a good man, who turned because of his government. So what? This isn't Star Wars. Big Boss does not compare to Darth Vader even remotely. Vader started off as a villain, and with each passing film, we learned that there was conflict within him, and he was able to die at least somewhat with a hint of redemption, saving his own son from the Emperor.

Big Boss, on the other hand, was a surprise bad guy in an obscure, thirty one year old game, who died, came back to life in the sequel, only appearing at the very end and then died again an absolute monster, and that was it. Neither MG1 or MG2 ever painted Big Boss as anything more than a malevolent excuse for a human being. MGS1 was the first game to try and paint him as some kind of savior, but Snake says it best, "Some people just need to die."

We didn't need MGS3 at all. In fact, if anything, MGS3 HURTS the lore, because it completely ruined MGS4's story. MGS4 is a poorly written mess, not just because it's crippled by UNBEARABLE amounts of over-exposition, but because the key players of MGS4 are the supporting players of MGS3. There was nothing ever indicating that Zero was some Patriot mastermind, nor that Para-Medic was ever capable of human experimentation to the cruel degree that she ended up taking it. And Big Boss coming back at the very end completely undermined the entire journey of MGS4, as did trying to turn Ocelot into a semi-sympathetic character despite him being nothing but a comically one note villain all series long until MGS3 and MGS4.

MGS4 is the end of Solid Snake's series, but it absolutely was not the place that MGS should have ended, because it would have ended an utter mess. Granted, MGSV ends kind of messy too, but its' mess doesn't come at the expense of the journey that came before it, and the game itself is, simply put, a revelation. More than that, MGS4, like the entire Big Boss trilogy, is entirely unnecessary.

MGS2 wasn't made with a sequel in mind. Kojima has stated repeatedly that this was a game not above leaving questions unanswered. Considering that MGS4's answers were unsatisfactory, and that it was the first MGS game Kojima himself wasn't INITIALLY signed to do until he had to basically come in after the fact, it's fair to say that Kojima's heart wasn't in MGS4 the way it was MGS2, because MGS2 was the game that Kojima initially wanted to end the series with. And honestly, as much as I dislike MGS2, that ending would have worked just fine. It would be polarizing, but considering it ended with MGSV, ending on a polarizing note clearly never bothered Kojima.

However, if you're still reading this post, you can guess where I'm going with this, because yes, MGS2 wasn't necessary either. It ends on a stinger of Ocelot getting away and talking to Solidus, but MGS2 ended with Liquid Ocelot riding off into the sunset, so who cares? MGS1 ended on a more or less, completely self contained note, and it had a bottled ending where Snake could have lived happily ever after with either Meryl or Otacon. The message was to just live your life, and that's as good a note as any to end on. MGS2, despite having Ocelot and Solidus in it, is a completely different story that continues a wider tapestry of conspiracy that MGS1 never even HINTED at, again, despite Solidus.

Once more, for good measure, we also didn't need MGS1, because it ends on basically the exact same note as MG2, because MGS1, for all intents and purposes, was a soft reboot of MG2, and in my opinion, kind of an inferior one, at least on a gameplay level. The story never expanded beyond Snake having unfinished business with Big Boss, and, like MGS1, it ends with Snake asking Jennifer on a date, presumably to a happily ever after of sorts. Only, Snake actually ended up having more screentime with Jennifer, so whatever romance they had actually felt earned.

This whole thing is just to say if you tug at a thread, eventually, the whole sweater unravels, especially when the sweater is held together on sand the way MGS was held together. This is now, nor has it ever been a strongly woven series. That's why the idea of MGSV not adding as much to the series and complicating it further seems absurd to me. This is a series where each passing game more or less rewrites what came before it for the immediate of that game, nothing more. Asking if one is necessary is redundant, because of course it isn't necessary.

But all of that said, of course MGSV should have been made. This is a series with a story that, when you really boil it down, is only liked by fans, and even most fans will admit they don't like most stories in this series. But these are video games, first and foremost. And each game provides a new gameplay experience. So, however contrived the excuse for that game may be, it will still be an experience distinct from any you'll play that year. And I can say with absolute certainty that MGSV is the reason I still bother buying new games. For me, personally, no video game on the PS3 has come even remotely close to being as inherently fun an experience as MGSV has continued to be for almost two and a half years now. That alone makes MGSV worth it, even if the writing was severely flawed. If the writing being flawed bothered me, I don't think I could even call myself an MGS fan, so take that however you will. :P
Edited by Doakes, Jan 5 2018, 02:53:31 AM.
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To4oo4
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Jan 5 2018, 02:52:33 AM
This is what's referred to as a 'Rabbit Hole' problem. It's a prospect aimed at one particular instance of a series because that's the instance that proves most polarizing and one people conveniently like to say is ultimately unnecessary compared to what came before. And like a Rabbit Hole, once you go down that road, you just go deeper and deeper.

Strictly speaking, MGSV shows the byproduct of Big Boss' particular brand of more nuanced villainy, as opposed to outright psychosis like many seemed to expect. It proved that power corrupts, and that Big Boss is just as big a hypocrite as the people he's fought. And that was a very important element towards cementing the fact that Big Boss truly is not a hero.

With that said, the series could have ended with Peace Walker no problem! After all, seeing Big Boss do what he did in GZ, and allowing what happened in MGSV to take place isn't technically necessary, because PW already established that Big Boss has decided, if the times demand it, he and his men will sell their souls and resort to less than savory actions to stay alive. "This is Outer Heaven" were the final lines of PW, cementing all of that, and the Big Boss saga COULD have ended then and there. After all, we don't need to SEE Big Boss doing what he promised when we have the information to put two and two together.

At the same time, PW is ALSO unnecessary, because MGS3 exists, and the very end of MGS3 establishes that Big Boss has become disillusioned with his country, with his idea of loyalty and patriotism. And that final scene is an easy lead in to one day, forty or so years later, Big Boss becoming a monster. All monsters are born somewhere and Big Boss' descent started the day he learned the truth. We quite honest didn't need PW OR MGSV because MGS3 painted the broad strokes we needed.

Only, here's the problem. We didn't NEED those broad strokes either. And we didn't need MGS3. All Snake Eater does is show us that Big Boss wasn't always a monster, and that he was once a good man, who turned because of his government. So what? This isn't Star Wars. Big Boss does not compare to Darth Vader even remotely. Vader started off as a villain, and with each passing film, we learned that there was conflict within him, and he was able to die at least somewhat with a hint of redemption, saving his own son from the Emperor.

Big Boss, on the other hand, was a surprise bad guy in an obscure, thirty one year old game, who died, came back to life in the sequel, only appearing at the very end and then died again an absolute monster, and that was it. Neither MG1 or MG2 ever painted Big Boss as anything more than a malevolent excuse for a human being. MGS1 was the first game to try and paint him as some kind of savior, but Snake says it best, "Some people just need to die."

We didn't need MGS3 at all. In fact, if anything, MGS3 HURTS the lore, because it completely ruined MGS4's story. MGS4 is a poorly written mess, not just because it's crippled by UNBEARABLE amounts of over-exposition, but because the key players of MGS4 are the supporting players of MGS3. There was nothing ever indicating that Zero was some Patriot mastermind, nor that Para-Medic was ever capable of human experimentation to the cruel degree that she ended up taking it. And Big Boss coming back at the very end completely undermined the entire journey of MGS4, as did trying to turn Ocelot into a semi-sympathetic character despite him being nothing but a comically one note villain all series long until MGS3 and MGS4.

MGS4 is the end of Solid Snake's series, but it absolutely was not the place that MGS should have ended, because it would have ended an utter mess. Granted, MGSV ends kind of messy too, but its' mess doesn't come at the expense of the journey that came before it, and the game itself is, simply put, a revelation. More than that, MGS4, like the entire Big Boss trilogy, is entirely unnecessary.

MGS2 wasn't made with a sequel in mind. Kojima has stated repeatedly that this was a game not above leaving questions unanswered. Considering that MGS4's answers were unsatisfactory, and that it was the first MGS game Kojima himself wasn't INITIALLY signed to do until he had to basically come in after the fact, it's fair to say that Kojima's heart wasn't in MGS4 the way it was MGS2, because MGS2 was the game that Kojima initially wanted to end the series with. And honestly, as much as I dislike MGS2, that ending would have worked just fine. It would be polarizing, but considering it ended with MGSV, ending on a polarizing note clearly never bothered Kojima.

However, if you're still reading this post, you can guess where I'm going with this, because yes, MGS2 wasn't necessary either. It ends on a stinger of Ocelot getting away and talking to Solidus, but MGS2 ended with Liquid Ocelot riding off into the sunset, so who cares? MGS1 ended on a more or less, completely self contained note, and it had a bottled ending where Snake could have lived happily ever after with either Meryl or Otacon. The message was to just live your life, and that's as good a note as any to end on. MGS2, despite having Ocelot and Solidus in it, is a completely different story that continues a wider tapestry of conspiracy that MGS1 never even HINTED at, again, despite Solidus.

Once more, for good measure, we also didn't need MGS1, because it ends on basically the exact same note as MG2, because MGS1, for all intents and purposes, was a soft reboot of MG2, and in my opinion, kind of an inferior one, at least on a gameplay level. The story never expanded beyond Snake having unfinished business with Big Boss, and, like MGS1, it ends with Snake asking Jennifer on a date, presumably to a happily ever after of sorts. Only, Snake actually ended up having more screentime with Jennifer, so whatever romance they had actually felt earned.

This whole thing is just to say if you tug at a thread, eventually, the whole sweater unravels, especially when the sweater is held together on sand the way MGS was held together. This is now, nor has it ever been a strongly woven series. That's why the idea of MGSV not adding as much to the series and complicating it further seems absurd to me. This is a series where each passing game more or less rewrites what came before it for the immediate of that game, nothing more. Asking if one is necessary is redundant, because of course it isn't necessary.

But all of that said, of course MGSV should have been made. This is a series with a story that, when you really boil it down, is only liked by fans, and even most fans will admit they don't like most stories in this series. But these are video games, first and foremost. And each game provides a new gameplay experience. So, however contrived the excuse for that game may be, it will still be an experience distinct from any you'll play that year. And I can say with absolute certainty that MGSV is the reason I still bother buying new games. For me, personally, no video game on the PS3 has come even remotely close to being as inherently fun an experience as MGSV has continued to be for almost two and a half years now. That alone makes MGSV worth it, even if the writing was severely flawed. If the writing being flawed bothered me, I don't think I could even call myself an MGS fan, so take that however you will. :P
Well I mean we did need the first game; without the first game, there's no series.
~T2
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kim kim
Snake! Snake! SNAAAAAAKE!

I say yes but the story needs to be better. The story wasn't complete and needs better explaining.
Edited by kim kim, Jan 5 2018, 11:41:59 AM.
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BigBoss>SolidSnake
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I appreciate everyone's replies... I just can't help it when I say that MGS5 is the first time that I have been disappointed with a MGS game and it took me a long time to admit that to myself, I really wanted to like it, and while I still do its mostly forgettable for me.

For me, MGS has ALWAYS been about the story and the lore, for me game play comes second to that. Many people on here tend to dislike MGS4, I have never felt like that and at the time it felt like a perfect and fitting end to the franchise, but now the end of the franchise is a game with an underwhelming story.

This is just my opinion, I respect everyone else's though and if you LOVE mgs5, I envy you!
Edited by BigBoss>SolidSnake, Jan 5 2018, 04:12:55 PM.
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Doakes
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To4oo4
Jan 5 2018, 03:08:43 AM
Well I mean we did need the first game; without the first game, there's no series.
That's just it; we didn't need a SERIES either. The first couple of games were self contained enough to where the ending could have been the end of it all, and Metal Gear itself would've been just fine. MGS1 through 4 are only story rich on the surface. It's when you look past the surface that a lot of the problems in stretching this series out as long as we have start to arise. We don't mind because the end result is more games, and that's perfectly fine! But if the notion is that a lore is better off ending at an earlier point, then I'd maintain that Metal Gears' lore would've been better had it ended in 1990 and not attempted to stretch thirty years, especially considering how inconsistent each and every entry in the series is in one form or another.
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I appreciate everyone's replies... I just can't help it when I say that MGS5 is the first time that I have been disappointed with a MGS game and it took me a long time to admit that to myself, I really wanted to like it, and while I still do its mostly forgettable for me.

For me, MGS has ALWAYS been about the story and the lore, for me game play comes second to that. Many people on here tend to dislike MGS4, I have never felt like that and at the time it felt like a perfect and fitting end to the franchise, but now the end of the franchise is a game with an underwhelming story.

This is just my opinion, I respect everyone else's though and if you LOVE mgs5, I envy you!
Different people play these games for different reasons. And I'm honestly of the opinion that if I played MGS for the story, then I couldn't call myself a fan, because the reality is that each story is wholly inconsistent with the lore, and in my personal opinion, underwhelming and poorly written.

From a less personal perspective, I think people also get kind of caught up in MGSV being the last MGS game in the same sense of a season of television being the series finale; everything has built up to this. And that simply isn't true. MGSV isn't the series finale of Metal Gear. MGS4 was. That's where everything came to an end, and it was, much like Lost, a mixed bag of love and loathing. MGSV is less a finale and more the conclusion of a side story that finally interconnects with the main story. The way it did was polarizing and weird, but it still did what it set out to do, and did so in about as "Kojima" a fashion as possible.

MGS is less a cohesive, interconnected saga, and more two near separate trilogies side by side. One is the present day trilogy which serves as the end game. The other is a prequel trilogy that sets up a villain who, while not having a large presence in MGS' main storyline, lingers throughout the whole series like a ghost, and how his journey kind of shaped the one Snake would traverse in his trials.

Of course, I can't tell anyone what they can or should like. However anyone feels about any given game is their business, and I do respect that, even if I may never agree. I simply try to lend a perspective of why I often just don't jive with the larger opinion base people tend to have, so that way, even if people adamantly disagree with me, they can at least see where I'm coming from. :)
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Khun
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I would say that from Kojima's viewpoint, the game was as success:

1. Not enough fan service? Check.

2. The plot-twist pissing off a lot of people? Check.

3. Some people frustrated by the fact that they couldn't fight against SF? Check.

4. Making people root for BB through Venom? Check.

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To4oo4
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Khun
Jan 5 2018, 09:01:33 PM
I would say that from Kojima's viewpoint, the game was as success:

1. Not enough fan service? Check.

2. The plot-twist pissing off a lot of people? Check.

3. Some people frustrated by the fact that they couldn't fight against SF? Check.

4. Making people root for BB through Venom? Check.

It sounds like you think it's a... POISONOUS game!
~T2
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Psajdak
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Too bad it's filled with filler missions and forgettable NPCs...
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The Departed
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How do you define a filler mission?
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Psajdak
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The Departed
Jan 6 2018, 03:27:45 AM
How do you define a filler mission?
I'm not good at defining things so that they sound like first few sentences on Wikipedia, but I can describe it...

Basically, a mission that has barely, or no effect on overall story in general, and which is filled with some random characters that will never again be mentioned.
Or simply mission(s) where you have to rescue / extract random prisoner / soldier that will join your ranks, and tommorow you won't even know what his name was.

In my case it was even worse, cause I probably played like no one else in the world - I play first Main mission, after that all available Side missions, and when they are done, move on to next Main which usually unlock 2 - 3 Sides, and so on; and in case Sides aren't unlocked, I just move on to the next Main, until some are, but the most important thing was never to move on to the next Main, even if there are some available, until available Sides are all done before.

I did it so simply cause I hate skipping things, but problem was that made story even more watered down...

I mean, it's not such a bad thing for me, but I wish that all missions with some forgettable NPCs were instead with actual characters that matter.
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Galactus123
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Yes. It is a great game and amazing gameplay. If you don't like the story then you can pretend that it isn't canon.
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To4oo4
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Galactus123
Jan 6 2018, 06:04:48 PM
Yes. It is a great game and amazing gameplay. If you don't like the story then you can pretend that it isn't canon.
That is what I do. Don't like the story, so I pretend it's not canon. Still a very fun game.
~T2
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Trippy
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Yes, but it really needed two more years in the oven. It needed the layer of MGS to be put over it.

Ideally, looking back what would have been great is if Big Boss went into a coma at the end of Peace Walker, and MGSV was released 9 years after that. Obviously Konami was never going to let that happen. But imagine if MGSV was coming out in just a few months, all that extra dev time to add which they never had time to complete. And it would also have been cool that we waited out the time that Big Boss spent in his coma too, like our wait was apart of the story.

After MGS3, I kind of always hopeD Kojima would step away from MGS and create another adventure game, a spiritual sequel to Snatcher or Policenauts, and revisit MGS many years later wth fresh ideas and maybe a rebooted story. Itís hard to maintain the same level of quality that the first 3 games gave us. MGSV as an overall game could have been the greatest of all time, but it needed more work, the engine was there but not much else.

Edited by Trippy, Jan 7 2018, 05:24:33 AM.


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The Departed
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V had 5 years of development and an 80 million dollar budget.

If it needed more time then Kojima's a hack.
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