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Metal Gear origin retcon - another example of hate toward America?
Topic Started: Feb 13 2018, 10:34:55 PM (1,776 Views)
Psajdak
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I mean that part where it is shown that the original idea of tank needing legs coming from a Russian scientist Granin, when it is implied before that was American invention.

It was like Kojima just didn't want America to have any feats, whatsoever.
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ballisticola
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Still we carry you.

When did it imply it was an American invention?
Metal Gear Solid V: Lord of the Parasites - a study of MGSV
Mission 46: The Painful Truth
The Science of Metal Gear: Who is the dominant Snake?

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Psajdak
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Hal is American.

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Khun
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Good point.
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black king
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Psajdak
Feb 14 2018, 03:43:48 PM
Hal is American.

Hal didn't design the first Metal Gear though. Up until ZEKE and Sahelanthropus, Mandar made the first Metal Gear in MG1. Mandar was Russian as well.

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ballisticola
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Psajdak
Feb 14 2018, 03:43:48 PM
Hal is American.

And REX isn't even his. It was built by multiple different companies and assembled at Shadow Moses. He didn't even know what its true purpose was.
Metal Gear Solid V: Lord of the Parasites - a study of MGSV
Mission 46: The Painful Truth
The Science of Metal Gear: Who is the dominant Snake?

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Psajdak
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...

Fuck.
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Weedle_McHairybug
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I have a lot of issues with Kojima trying to demonize America, and MGS1, while tame compared to the likes of MGS2, MGS4, Peace Walker, and MGSV which hits you over the head with it even in standard gameplay, does have some anti-American sentiment and is no MGS3 or Portable Ops in trying to promote American values.

Nonetheless, Metal Gear itself was NOT an American invention, so that time it wasn't one of Kojima's infamous retcons (even in the MSX2 games, Metal Gear was developed by a Dr. Drago Pettrovich Madnar, or Dr. Pettrovich if you prefer), let alone an attempt at demonizing America. If anything, having America develop REX at all was closer to being an anti-American message given how they were demonized for developing it.
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Khun
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If anything, having America develop REX at all was closer to being an anti-American message given how they were demonized for developing it.

This is probably what Psajdak meant; he gets things mixed up.
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Galactus123
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The good guys are american so I don't think you can say that the game shows hate towards America. Kojima likes american popular culture so I don't think he hates the country.
Edited by Galactus123, Feb 19 2018, 04:31:11 PM.
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Weedle_McHairybug
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Galactus123
Feb 19 2018, 04:29:56 PM
The good guys are american so I don't think you can say that the game shows hate towards America. Kojima likes american popular culture so I don't think he hates the country.
American in terms of holding residence there, sure. However, the series is pretty blatantly anti-American. In MGS1, for example, aside from Solid Snake admitting he's not a patriot in the briefing, calling Nastasha Romanenko pretty much has her basically bashing America constantly for having nukes, barely making any comment towards Russia or China for having nukes (and this is DESPITE the fact that Nastasha's hatred of nukes stemmed from Chernobyl which was Soviet-bloc, meaning that if anything she should hate Russia, not America.).

And don't get me started on MGS2, which actually PAINTED the concept of America as bad guys via the Patriots. In fact, Hideo Kojima if anything pretty much spelled out in his Grand Game Plan that he viewed America as being the "biggest evil" in terms of the game's themes, and even implied that Solid Snake was meant to be a spy for Communist China. Don't believe me? Read this:

Spoiler: click to toggle


Oh, and in the actual game itself, they had Snake go as far as to essentially declare himself a citizen of the world, and the Gurlukovich Mercenaries' were depicted as far more sympathetic than most of the American cast barring maybe Solidus.

And don't get me started on Peace Walker and MGSV, which pretty much constantly demonized America as a country, blaming it for all the ills of what's going on in Central America, and pretty much ignore or at the very least gloss over the fact that many of the things America was blamed for such as drug running was not only done by the Soviets and FSLN as well, but the latter party actually STARTED that mess, and they even painted the likes of Che Guevara, Mao Zedong, and Sartre as saints, even though they did a lot of horrific and inhumane acts, which a mere search on the internet could expose (heck, Che's pretty much the reason why the Cuban Missile Crisis got as bad as it did, and considering Miller and Big Boss had to stop a nuclear launch twice in the same game, it comes across as especially jarring that they'd sing praises for the guy who was responsible for the CMC, especially when explicit comparisons to that event were made). And then there's the unsubtle attempt at demonizing Guantanamo Bay, and how allying with the Communist MPLA is treated as a good thing in the Africa mission while American involvement is demonized. Heck, the whole reason why Venom Snake was made a body double of Big Boss rather than Big Boss himself is because Kojima nixed the idea of making Huey "Ishmael" since that would have apparently allowed for a "pro-American bias" towards morality (and I have a funny feeling that may also have been the reason why Huey was outright demonized in this game), not to mention constantly blaming us for the American Indian Boarding School bit, which you can see from Kenji Yano here:

Spoiler: click to toggle


Heck, Kojima outright admits the games up to Ground Zeroes were meant to be anti-American in nature in this Guardian interview:

Spoiler: click to toggle


Also, the good guys, while technically American, have either made it very clear that they don't like America and frequently bash it (MGS1, Peace Walker, and MGSV), or otherwise are forced to work for America (MGS1, MGS2, and to a lesser extent MGS3). And don't get me started that many of the secret villains tended to be Americans, and not just those who held American nationality (case in point: MGS1 had Solidus being the secret instigator of the events of the game, MGS2... well, there's the Patriots who were explicitly stated to be America personified, and MGS3 had the CIA director). In fact, the closest we've got to a good guy in the series who is unquestionably patriotic to America is The Boss, and her patriotism as she defined it was closer to nihilism and obeying even unlawful orders absolutely. Besides, it's not the only time American heroes in their games make comments that demonize America. In Resident Evil 5, Chris Redfield actually claims America has a dark side due to it being a capitalist institution, and infers he's not fond of America for that reason, and he hailed from America (in fact, other than Pokémon with Lt. Surge, the only game franchise I can think of that DOESN'T try to crap on America is Dead or Alive).

And for the record, just because someone likes American pop culture doesn't mean they actually LIKE America. Stalin liked Cowboy movies, for example, and even Nikita Khrushchev wanted to go to Disneyland, and they utterly hated America and would try to destroy it if given the chance. I even heard the Kim Dynasty has a private collection of hollywood movies, and those guys obviously hated America. Besides, I'm not sure Hollywood is pro-America right now, considering they often push anti-American values to the masses and bash the military and law enforcement, even parts of the second amendment.
Edited by Weedle_McHairybug, Feb 19 2018, 06:35:02 PM.
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ballisticola
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Still we carry you.

Just because he likes the culture, it doesn't mean his series can't criticise the country. Which is most certainly does. And it's not like his own protagonists think of themselves as heroes.
Metal Gear Solid V: Lord of the Parasites - a study of MGSV
Mission 46: The Painful Truth
The Science of Metal Gear: Who is the dominant Snake?

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Galactus123
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I'm sure Kojima likes USA but he is critical at the same time. There is nothing wrong about that.
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Khun
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Well, Galactus is probably as anti-American as Kojima, if not more.
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Galactus123
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Khun
Feb 20 2018, 03:45:31 PM
Well, Galactus is probably as anti-American as Kojima, if not more.
I'm not. I like america and I would probably move there if I was rich. It doesn't mean that you dislike a country if you criticise it.
Edited by Galactus123, Feb 20 2018, 04:23:00 PM.
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Weedle_McHairybug
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Galactus123
Feb 20 2018, 04:16:54 PM
Khun
Feb 20 2018, 03:45:31 PM
Well, Galactus is probably as anti-American as Kojima, if not more.
I'm not. I like america and I would probably move there if I was rich. It doesn't mean that you dislike a country if you criticise it.
Maybe not, and I have a few things to criticize my country for, but when he goes as far as to outright root for people like Che Guevara like he did in Peace Walker as well as various communist groups, he stepped from simply criticizing America's flaws to outright demonizing America as a concept (not to mention him specifically stating it was MGS2's "biggest evil").

Let me put it another way that you might understand, would you call a guy who idolizes Adolf Hitler and criticizes America to such an extent that he ignores the Nazi's crimes pro-American? No, I don't think you would. It's the exact same deal with Kojima.
Edited by Weedle_McHairybug, Feb 20 2018, 04:36:24 PM.
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Khun
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Galactus123
Feb 20 2018, 04:16:54 PM
Khun
Feb 20 2018, 03:45:31 PM
Well, Galactus is probably as anti-American as Kojima, if not more.
I'm not. I like america and I would probably move there if I was rich. It doesn't mean that you dislike a country if you criticise it.
By following your logic, even Osama bin Laden didn't dislike this country.

Basically, Kojima enjoys the cultural aspect of America (like "Hollywood"). On the other hand, he's blatantly anti-American when it comes to politics. Bear in mind that Metal Gear is a political series. If you overlook it, then you can't fully fathom Kojima's intents/retcons: in 1987, when Metal Gear was released, Kojima was probably a "supporter" of America (making Big Boss a villain). Throughout the years he became more and more anti-American making Big Boss the protagonist and America the embodiment of evil.
Edited by Khun, Feb 20 2018, 04:47:56 PM.
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Weedle_McHairybug
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Khun
Feb 20 2018, 04:34:39 PM
Galactus123
Feb 20 2018, 04:16:54 PM
Khun
Feb 20 2018, 03:45:31 PM
Well, Galactus is probably as anti-American as Kojima, if not more.
I'm not. I like america and I would probably move there if I was rich. It doesn't mean that you dislike a country if you criticise it.
By following your logic, even Osama bin Laden didn't dislike this country.

Basically, Kojima enjoys the cultural aspect of America (like "Hollywood"). On the other hand, he's blatantly anti-American when it comes to politics. Bear in mind that Metal Gear is a political series. If you overlook it, then you can't fully fathom Kojima's intents/retcons: in 1987, when Metal Gear was released, Kojima was probably a "supporter" of America (making Big Boss a villain). Throughout the years he became more and more anti-American making Big Boss the protagonist and America the embodiment of evil.
Actually, not even when he made Big Boss a good guy, he was starting to make America the bad guy since at least MGS2.

And yeah, it doesn't help that plenty of anti-American dictators ironically loved some elements of America, namely Khrushchev actually wanted to go Walt Disney World from what I heard, so just because someone likes stuff like Hollywood doesn't mean they're pro-American (and besides, I'm not sure Hollywood as a whole right now is pro-American).
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Galactus123
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Weedle_McHairybug
Feb 19 2018, 06:22:48 PM
Galactus123
Feb 19 2018, 04:29:56 PM
The good guys are american so I don't think you can say that the game shows hate towards America. Kojima likes american popular culture so I don't think he hates the country.
American in terms of holding residence there, sure. However, the series is pretty blatantly anti-American. In MGS1, for example, aside from Solid Snake admitting he's not a patriot in the briefing, calling Nastasha Romanenko pretty much has her basically bashing America constantly for having nukes, barely making any comment towards Russia or China for having nukes (and this is DESPITE the fact that Nastasha's hatred of nukes stemmed from Chernobyl which was Soviet-bloc, meaning that if anything she should hate Russia, not America.).

And don't get me started on MGS2, which actually PAINTED the concept of America as bad guys via the Patriots. In fact, Hideo Kojima if anything pretty much spelled out in his Grand Game Plan that he viewed America as being the "biggest evil" in terms of the game's themes, and even implied that Solid Snake was meant to be a spy for Communist China. Don't believe me? Read this:

Spoiler: click to toggle


Oh, and in the actual game itself, they had Snake go as far as to essentially declare himself a citizen of the world, and the Gurlukovich Mercenaries' were depicted as far more sympathetic than most of the American cast barring maybe Solidus.
I don't think the fact that MGS2's bad guys are the Patriots means dislike towards america. It doesn't refer to American people like that text says. I think it is an interesting concept that there would some group controlling everything without anyone knowing. They are the bad guys in the story. It is a shocking reveal that the main character(Raiden) is actually working for the bad guys. It makes a good story.

I haven't played MGS4.
Edited by Galactus123, Feb 21 2018, 10:54:33 AM.
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Khun
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Galactus123
Feb 21 2018, 10:43:15 AM
Weedle_McHairybug
Feb 19 2018, 06:22:48 PM
Galactus123
Feb 19 2018, 04:29:56 PM
The good guys are american so I don't think you can say that the game shows hate towards America. Kojima likes american popular culture so I don't think he hates the country.
American in terms of holding residence there, sure. However, the series is pretty blatantly anti-American. In MGS1, for example, aside from Solid Snake admitting he's not a patriot in the briefing, calling Nastasha Romanenko pretty much has her basically bashing America constantly for having nukes, barely making any comment towards Russia or China for having nukes (and this is DESPITE the fact that Nastasha's hatred of nukes stemmed from Chernobyl which was Soviet-bloc, meaning that if anything she should hate Russia, not America.).

And don't get me started on MGS2, which actually PAINTED the concept of America as bad guys via the Patriots. In fact, Hideo Kojima if anything pretty much spelled out in his Grand Game Plan that he viewed America as being the "biggest evil" in terms of the game's themes, and even implied that Solid Snake was meant to be a spy for Communist China. Don't believe me? Read this:

Spoiler: click to toggle


Oh, and in the actual game itself, they had Snake go as far as to essentially declare himself a citizen of the world, and the Gurlukovich Mercenaries' were depicted as far more sympathetic than most of the American cast barring maybe Solidus.
I don't think the fact that MGS2's bad guys are the Patriots means dislike towards america. It doesn't refer to American people like that text says. I think it is an interesting concept that there would some group controlling everything without anyone knowing. They are the bad guys in the story. It is a shocking reveal that the main character(Raiden) is actually working for the bad guys. It makes a good story.

I haven't played MGS4.
It was never about "hating" Americans (as people): anti-American as criticizing the American institutions (the government, the army, secret agencies like the CIA, the Patriots and so on) which happen to be powerful/influential. Again, this is political.

By the way, the 3 main protagonists (Solid Snake, Raiden and Big Boss) have been all working for the "bad guys" at some point.
Edited by Khun, Feb 21 2018, 01:18:53 PM.
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