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Inside YOU
Topic Started: May 6 2018, 09:03:43 PM (559 Views)
tonic
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One reason Solidus wanted to kill Raiden was to sever their connected past. He says it's time they were both free. But he then says he has other reasons for killing Raiden. Check it out here 4 minutes 15 secs in:

https://youtu.be/mhcKnSgGjZI

"The clues to the Patriots inside GW have been erased, but there are other traces...Inside YOU. Note that he wasn't suggesting that Raiden would be able to verbally give him this information. It was inside Raiden. In fact when Solidus was strangling Raiden after the Ray fight he wasn't expecting any info from Raiden. He states, "it's not him I want the answers from". Raiden is a lacky for the Patriots who knows nothing of interest to Solidus.

"The information is being carried by the nanomachines in your cerebral cortex, and through the neural network they form". Neural network??? I googled neural network and this is the definition I found:

https://www.google.com/search?q=neural+network&rlz=1C9BKJA_enUS770US772&oq=neural+&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j0l2j5.4355j0j8&hl=en-US&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8

Hmm.."a computer system modeled on the human brain and nervous system".

So Raiden has a parallel system of control (neural network) operating in his real brain. It was not just the stimulation of the bones in his ear manipulating his action from an inmaginary Colonel. Interesting...could that be what the fission mailed screen was trying to signify? Two parallel brain functions. When Raiden dies during fission mailed screen he was somehow still living. What's even more interesting is that Solidus believes he can access this neural network even with Raiden dead. Dude was a cyborg. :cool:


Edited by tonic, May 6 2018, 09:20:31 PM.
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Khun
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If Raiden was already a cyborg during MGS2, then his body wouldn't have been through modifications before the events of MGS4. His blood is red, not white.
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tonic
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Khun
May 7 2018, 10:08:27 AM
If Raiden was already a cyborg during MGS2, then his body wouldn't have been through modifications before the events of MGS4. His blood is red, not white.
I just gave you an example of the modifications. He a had a parallel computer brain operating is his own cerebrum. Is that not a significant modification. You speak of his blood being red. The metal gear rays blood in MGS2 was red too and just as artificial as Raiden's. Raiden's artificial blood was nano infused, the Rays blood was nano paste. The color of the blood has no significance as to whether Raiden was a cyborg or not. The fact that his blood is artificial and nano-infused to the point where it created its own neural network in his head makes him a cyborg.

In fact his body likely had to go through modification before MGS4 because they had to remove the nano-infestation it had with all that fake blood.
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Weedle_McHairybug
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Khun
May 7 2018, 10:08:27 AM
If Raiden was already a cyborg during MGS2, then his body wouldn't have been through modifications before the events of MGS4. His blood is red, not white.
To be fair, it was established in a Codec conversation that the Patriots replaced Raiden's blood with a nanotech recovery paste before the events of the mission (of course, why it was colored red instead of white like in MGS4 and to a lesser extent the Civilian Cyborg blood in MGR [this is based on a Codec call with Doktor], I have no idea).

But I do agree, I doubt Raiden really qualifies as a cyborg during MGS2, even with the nanopaste and whole nanomachine cortex thing that essentially had Raiden act as a backup system for GW. It's like saying Solid Snake in MGS1 is a cyborg just because he's got nanomachines from Shadow Moses that, among other things, remotely locked him from using his weapons, administered various adrenaline, nutrients, sugars, nootropics, and benzedrines, recharged his Codec battery, stimulating muscle fibers remotely via ciliary motility, and of course acting as a walking bioweapon.
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Khun
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Thanks, tonic and Weedle, I totally forgot about that because in MGS2 (at least) he acts like, well, a human being with no enhanced capabilities (no different than Big Boss or Solid Snake) which is why I don't see him as a "cyborg" (at least in this game).

This is how I understand Solidus' quote: when you think about it, Raiden is the first individual (chronologically) who has been sent directly by The Patriots' AIs (no proxies). Furthermore, he was the only one who had the privilege to talk to them. It makes him an unique individual given that he might have valuable informations on them "inside" him.
Edited by Khun, May 7 2018, 10:47:13 PM.
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Weedle_McHairybug
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Khun
May 7 2018, 10:39:12 PM
Thanks, tonic and Weedle, I totally forgot about that because in MGS2 (at least) he acts like, well, a human being with no enhanced capabilities (no different than Big Boss or Solid Snake) which is why I don't see him as a "cyborg" (at least in this game).

This is how I understand Solidus' quote: when you think about it, Raiden is the first individual (chronologically) who has been sent directly by The Patriots' AIs (no proxies). Furthermore, he was the only one who had the privilege to talk to them. It makes him an unique individual given that he might have valuable informations on them "inside" him.
In all fairness, it was one of those calls that you really needed to go out of your way to find and thus was easily missed by many players, so I don't blame you for forgetting that particular call.

And yeah, since he's essentially a backup conduit for GW thanks to that nanomachine cortex, which is also implied (confirmed in the script) to have really affected Raiden's memories big time, at least for the most part (Solidus said "High-concentration of cerebral implants... Have they altered your memory, too?"), it's pretty clear the Patriots had directly sent him (well, more or less, since Raiden wasn't even aware of who they were due to thinking he was sent by Colonel Campbell).
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tonic
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...of course, why it was colored red instead of white like in MGS4 and to a lesser extent the Civilian Cyborg blood in MGR [this is based on a Codec call with Doktor], I have no idea).
Likely to make Raiden seem normal. Throughout the game they were slow leaking these details about Raiden which should have given us pause. This was one of them.

Weedle_McHairybug
 
But I do agree, I doubt Raiden really qualifies as a cyborg during MGS2, even with the nanopaste and whole nanomachine cortex thing that essentially had Raiden act as a backup system for GW. It's like saying Solid Snake in MGS1 is a cyborg just because he's got nanomachines from Shadow Moses that, among other things, remotely locked him from using his weapons, administered various adrenaline, nutrients, sugars, nootropics, and benzedrines, recharged his Codec battery, stimulating muscle fibers remotely via ciliary motility, and of course acting as a walking bioweapon.
I guess technically you could say Snake was a cyborg on some level but the nanomachines impact on Snake was more physical and medicinal. It didn't directly impact his decision making. For example he likely could still decide to pull the trigger in the nuclear Bldg. It's just that the gun was locked in that area.

This is the difference and why I would say Raiden was more a "cyborg" in the common interpretation of the word. The neural network, the AI protocol controlled his decision making to the point where he did what they wanted him to do. How did they do it:

The S3 is a protocol for controlling human will and consciousness. (Altered his memory)
We think for you. ( Decided what his goals need to be)
Our goal is not to censor content, but to create context (Limited his choices. Without choice their is no free will)


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Weedle_McHairybug
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tonic
May 8 2018, 04:53:22 AM
Weedle_McHairybug
 

...of course, why it was colored red instead of white like in MGS4 and to a lesser extent the Civilian Cyborg blood in MGR [this is based on a Codec call with Doktor], I have no idea).
Likely to make Raiden seem normal. Throughout the game they were slow leaking these details about Raiden which should have given us pause. This was one of them.

Weedle_McHairybug
 
But I do agree, I doubt Raiden really qualifies as a cyborg during MGS2, even with the nanopaste and whole nanomachine cortex thing that essentially had Raiden act as a backup system for GW. It's like saying Solid Snake in MGS1 is a cyborg just because he's got nanomachines from Shadow Moses that, among other things, remotely locked him from using his weapons, administered various adrenaline, nutrients, sugars, nootropics, and benzedrines, recharged his Codec battery, stimulating muscle fibers remotely via ciliary motility, and of course acting as a walking bioweapon.
I guess technically you could say Snake was a cyborg on some level but the nanomachines impact on Snake was more physical and medicinal. It didn't directly impact his decision making. For example he likely could still decide to pull the trigger in the nuclear Bldg. It's just that the gun was locked in that area.

This is the difference and why I would say Raiden was more a "cyborg" in the common interpretation of the word. The neural network, the AI protocol controlled his decision making to the point where he did what they wanted him to do. How did they do it:

The S3 is a protocol for controlling human will and consciousness. (Altered his memory)
We think for you. ( Decided what his goals need to be)
Our goal is not to censor content, but to create context (Limited his choices. Without choice their is no free will)


I'm not so sure about it not impacting his decision making. The way Naomi talked when that came up made it seem as though it DID lock his ability to decide on using a gun.
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tonic
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I'm not so sure about it not impacting his decision making. The way Naomi talked when that came up made it seem as though it DID lock his ability to decide on using a gun.
No she said programme the nanomachines that he won't be able to. Not that he couldn't chose to.

https://youtu.be/2x9DH-X_Q58

In fact even after what Naomi said, Campbell was stressing to Snake that he should not use his weapon in that building.

What I find very interesting is that Solidus felt he had to kill Raiden to access the neural network in his cerebral cortex. If that was the case how did Big Mama access it to find the location of Big Boss. Note that she never said that Raiden told her the location of Big Boss. She says, "it was when I met him that I found the location of Big Boss". How? "It was in the data he obtained from GW". Is this why Raiden's body had to be taken apart to access the nanomachine neural network. Is that why they had to remove the bottom half of his jaw to get access to the cerebral implants.
Edited by tonic, May 10 2018, 01:34:30 PM.
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ballisticola
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Is this why Raiden's body had to be taken apart to access the nanomachine neural network. Is that why they had to remove the bottom half of his jaw to get access to the cerebral implants.
So they removed every part of his body, when they could have just cut part of his skull off?
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tonic
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ballisticola
 

So they removed every part of his body, when they could have just cut part of his skull off?


I don't know but I assume the reason Raiden body parts were removed was to rid him of all the nanomachines. Correct me if I wrong with that because I can't recall it being stated anywhere. However listen to what Solidus says:

"The information is being carried by the nanomachines in your cerebral cortex, AND throughout the neural network they formed".

So the information Raiden is carrying may not just be localized to the nanomachines in his cerebral cortex ( which I assume are the IMPLANTED NANOS that were used to alter Raiden's memory) but also could be in the neural network that they have formed. What is this neural network if not the implanted nanos in Raiden's cerebral cortex? Could it be that while some nanos were implants the others were just intravenous? The implanted nanos then communicating with the intravenous ones to form the neural network.

Hmm .. I remember the Colonel saying that Skull Suit Raiden wore was a kind of feedback system. Its interesting because if the Nanomachines in Raiden entire body formed the neural network that would explain the name Skull Suit seeming "appropriate somehow". The Skull Suit encompassing the neural network(AI brain) like the Skull emcompasses the real brain.
Edited by tonic, May 10 2018, 10:36:58 PM.
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ballisticola
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I don't know but I assume the reason Raiden body parts were removed was to rid him of all the nanomachines. Correct me if I wrong with that because I can't recall it being stated anywhere
It's heavily implied that he was just another experiment of the Patriots. It was Dr. Madnar who saved Raiden. For what reason would the Patriots want to remove his nanos? They could just erase any data. And if that was the intention, he still has the nanos in his brain.
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tonic
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ballisticola
 

It's heavily implied that he was just another experiment of the Patriots. It was Dr. Madnar who saved Raiden. For what reason would the Patriots want to remove his nanos? They could just erase any data. And if that was the intention, he still has the nanos in his brain.


I'm not suggesting that it was the Patriots who removed the nanos. I'm suggesting that the people wanting information about the Patriots removed the nanos, because there was information about the Patriots in them. Note that one of the reasons Solidus wanted Raiden dead was so he could access this information. Even with Raiden dead Solidus thought he could still get the info from Raiden's corpse.

Big Mama said it was when she met Raiden that she was able to discover Big Boss' location. How? I don't recall it being Raiden telling her. She and Madnar may have access it in a way similar to how Solidus planned to access it. Via the nanos.
Edited by tonic, May 10 2018, 11:41:06 PM.
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ballisticola
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I'm not suggesting that it was the Patriots who removed the nanos.
No, but they did remove his body. Or don't you believe that?
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Big Mama said it was when she met Raiden that she was able to discover Big Boss' location. How?
So you can't think of any other way they found the information?
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tonic
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ballisticola
 

No, but they did remove his body. Or don't you believe that?


I'm pretty versed with MGS2 but what happened between MGS2 & MGS4 not so much. I didn't know that it was the Patriots who removed Raiden's body. When you said it was Madnar who saved him I was assuming that it was Eva and Madnar who found and saved him after MGS2. So is it ever stated why they removed his body?

ballisticola
 

So you can't think of any other way they found the information?

I honestly don't remember much. I remember Snake had a disk with a list of names that never panned out. But if you are saying Madnar saved Raiden I assume it has something to do with that. I played MGS4 only once so a lot of those details haven't stuck with me like MGS2. So how did they find Big Boss location?
Edited by tonic, May 11 2018, 12:49:58 AM.
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ballisticola
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It was Arms Tech who created the cyborg Raiden. And it was Madnar who saved him from them.

The disc was a virus for deleting information from GW, which contained the information that needed deleting. That's the most obvious explanation.
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tonic
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ballisticola
May 13 2018, 10:08:07 PM
The disc was a virus for deleting information from GW, which contained the information that needed deleting. That's the most obvious explanation.
Big Mama's words don't lead me to believe it was the disc.

"It was when I met him that I finally discovered the location of Big Boss"

She seems to be suggesting that she actively discovered this information. Not that it was given to her.

"It was in the data he obtained from GW"

But did Raiden obtain the data(disc) "from the AI GW" or did he get a disc from the president? Remember this is a disc that was switched by Solid Snake. I remember the ending of MGS2 when Raiden wanted to go with Snake, Snake holds the disc away from him and says there are things he has to do first and people(Rose) he needs to speak to. I got the impression that Raiden hadn't been in contact with Snake from then up to the time Raiden met Big Mama. So how could he have given her BB's location based on the contents of that disc given he never had it. This is all based on memory so let me know if I'm missing something.

It also can't be ignored that the information(data) being carried by the nanomachines in Raiden's cerebral cortex and the neural network they formed is precisely data obtained from GW(AI). Which is what Big Mama referenced. Also exactly what Solidus intended to use to find clues about the Patriots. You got to now wonder exactly how she accessed that data and whether that had any impact on the Raiden we see in MGS4.

ballisticola
 
It's heavily implied that he was just another experiment of the Patriots. It was Dr. Madnar who saved Raiden. For what reason would the Patriots want to remove his nanos? They could just erase any data. And if that was the intention, he still has the nanos in his brain.
Here is one thing that's confusing me. You mentioned that it's Armstech that removed Raiden's head and spine and inserted it into a cyborg body. But that happened after Raiden was captured rescuing Big Boss's body right. Even before that Raiden rescued Sunny right. So how do you explain this image of Raiden rescuing sunny.

https://goo.gl/images/8v1Ug4

Look at his body his muscles have mostly been removed and this was before he gets captured by the Patriots. Why were his muscles removed if not to rid him of the nanomachines. Possibly nanomachine data that could identify Big Bosses location.

Also given his physical condition in the picture, why would the Patriots still have an interest in experimenting on him in particular. The claim is that he was chosen initially simply because he was the only one of Solidusí child soldiers who was able to put his past behind him. What could possibly be the reason they sought to continue to experiment on him again putting him in a Cyborg Ninja body?
Edited by tonic, May 24 2018, 06:30:02 PM.
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ballisticola
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Even before that Raiden rescued Sunny right. So how do you explain this image of Raiden rescuing sunny.
It's pretty clear that Snake hadn't seen Raiden since he rescued Sunny and that it was the first time he'd seen him as a cyborg. Artwork means nothing against the final product. There is no doubt the Patriots did it.
Quote:
 
I got the impression that Raiden hadn't been in contact with Snake from then up to the time Raiden met Big Mama. So how could he have given her BB's location based on the contents of that disc given he never had it. This is all based on memory so let me know if I'm missing something.
Snake also said that he would find Sunny, but it was Raiden that rescued her. He also rescued Big Boss in exchange for Sunny's location. So when he first met Eva he wasn't a cyborg.
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tonic
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ballisticola
 
It's pretty clear that Snake hadn't seen Raiden since he rescued Sunny and that it was the first time he'd seen him as a cyborg. Artwork means nothing against the final product. There is no doubt the Patriots did it.

I would agree that the artwork means nothing if the final product contradicts it. However thatís not the case here. The artwork is depicting a period of time that wasnít shown in the game. The rescue of Sunny occurred in the time period between MGS2 and MGS4. In fact at one point Kojima considered making an MGSV game depicting that time period. That picture is probably the only visual reference we have of what Raiden looked like in that time. It may yet to prove just a concept that they abandoned but we donít know that. And boy does it pose a lot of questions.

Why were his muscles removed and who did it?
How could he still move around and rescue sunny in that state?
In Raidenís condition in the picture why would the Patriot choose him to spend money on again to put in a cyborg body?
Hmm...Maybe there is something special about him from the neck up!

ballisticola
 
Snake also said that he would find Sunny, but it was Raiden that rescued her. He also rescued Big Boss in exchange for Sunny's location. So when he first met Eva he wasn't a cyborg.
Well he wasnít the Cyborg Ninja that we see in MGS4 but to be honest with you Iím not sure what we are seeing in that pic. The man looks like he was walking around with no muscles. What did Vamp say again, ďhuman muscles are quite eloquent but yours are differentĒ.
Edited by tonic, May 25 2018, 10:55:11 PM.
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Ef9 o shea
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Yep from the neck up he is Frank jaegar , who would be in his 60's by mgs4

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