Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
We hope you enjoy your visit.

You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.

Why join MGSF?
  • MGSF is officially the internet's largest MGS discussion board. So, you can enjoy your time with an active community of dedicated MGS fans.
  • Want more than just MGS talk? MGSF has a huge off-topic section for Opinions, Sport, Music, Movies, and other video games!
  • Organizations! Create your own or join an existing one. Organizations are sub-communities of the forum designed so you can gather with your closest friends on the board.
  • Blog! As a member, you have the ability to create your own blog on the forum for other users and/or guests to read.
  • Our forum also has an Arts sections for you to express your creative side, as well as a Digital Art forum in the computer corner.
  • We also have a Kojima Productions forum for members who wish to discuss KP-related issues outside of MGS.
Join our community today!

If you are already a member, please log in to your account to access all of your features:

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
Ocean's 8 and Hollywood's lack of creativity; Is gender-swapping really necessary?
Topic Started: Jun 17 2018, 02:29:08 PM (273 Views)
Gray Panther
Member Avatar
Grayer than Yaeger
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/12/movies/oceans-8-gender-swap.html

I read this the other day, after hearing about the lead actresses apparently blaming Ocean's 8's less than perfect critical performance on "white male critics". Whether or not this was based on the RT rating of 68% (which isn't too bad), the funny thing about that rating is that I found just as many female reviewer names who gave it a fresh rating as ones who gave it a rotten rating. So both sides of the spectrum had a more or less equal say. Not that I give RT much credibility...

The audience rating however is 49%, so maybe the problem isn't with the critics but the movie itself. Sometimes a movie is just bad that even a star cast won't save it. Now I personally haven't seen Ocean's 8 yet, I might watch it once it becomes available for streaming. But the fact that many are saying that it's really a rehash of Steven Soderbergh's Ocean's Eleven but with women, it just makes me wonder "what am I going to see here that I haven't seen before?" Even the opening scene with Sandra Bullock is the same orange-clad prisoner interrogation scene which you see with Clooney. My point being, just how necessary was it to make Ocean's 8?

All kinds of things have been said about the lack of diversity in Hollywood when it comes to women and minorities. And I'm actually FOR diversity. I want to see more movies like Zero Dark Thirty, Wonder Woman, Molly's Game, I Tonya. Movies directed by, or written by, or telling fascinating stories about, women. The problem in said lack of diversity is that the more interesting material is now going to low-key, independent studios and directors, with A-list actors in them. These are movies you won't see get a red carpet premiere. I actually have a list of such movies I want to see this year which I only found out about thanks to Youtube trailers! :D

Maybe the lack of diversity in Hollywood comes from lack of creativity. Case in point the recent wave of remakes and reboots, and sort of sub-trend of this being gender-swapping. Did we as an audience really ask for a new Ghostbusters? or Ocean's 8? Or other remakes currently on the way, some of them rehashes but with women? The problem I see with that is Hollywood in desperation is running out of ideas whilst the more interesting stuff which SHOULD be on the table is going where studio execs wouldn't have the imagination to look for. And these gender-swapped rehashes of old classic movies, which I'd much rather they be left alone, are not only a lazy attempt to cash in on a completely unnecessary trend, but also a disservice to the women writers and directors who might actually have something more interesting to offer. There should be more of the likes of Kathryn Bigelow and Patty Jenkins at the forefront, instead of remakes with women filling men's shoes.

TL;DR: lack of diversity, and in turn the bashing of "white males" coming from pseudo-feminists, is as a result of lack of creativity in Hollywood, whilst the really creative stuff is going towards indie hands which should get more recognition that it's currently getting.

Thoughts?
Edited by Gray Panther, Jun 17 2018, 02:32:50 PM.
Posted Image
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Novitch
Member Avatar
Knight
Is not lack of creativity, its just that no one wants to watch their propaganda.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Jassassino
Member Avatar
Avocados at law.

Novitch
Jun 17 2018, 04:45:26 PM
Is not lack of creativity, its just that no one wants to watch their propaganda.
It's not Propaganda, it's where studio executives grossly misunderstand concepts being demanded by political and civil activists and try to capitalise on it. I guarantee the main reason any celebrity "feminist" appraisal will ever come out of this film is due to one thing: $$$$$$
Gray Panther
Jun 17 2018, 02:29:08 PM
There should be more of the likes of Kathryn Bigelow and Patty Jenkins at the forefront, instead of remakes with women filling men's shoes.
Agreed. These rehashed ideas are detrimental to the overall goal.
Edited by Jassassino, Jun 17 2018, 04:53:33 PM.
Posted Image
Piss off, ghost!
Posted Image
Rest in Peace, OS.

Welcome to the Gallery
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
The Departed
Member Avatar
Your friendly neighborhood truck

Spy is an example of a good female driven film for one reason; its original. No matter the intention, remaking anything and keeping all the beats the same, sans everyone's a girl is gonna appear cheap and lazy. Films need substance. Like any remake you ever make, the fundamental question asked is necessity.

What are we getting from this film that we can't already get from the original?

Or in this case, the decent Clooney remake of the shitty original with Dean Martin.
Posted Image
Dirty Duck
 
Duck as sake no bidibgeybfbfhailhydradrinkn:(

awards and such

r.i.p. to the coolest dude we'll ever know :gary:
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Jassassino
Member Avatar
Avocados at law.

Sicario is another great example of what we SHOULD be getting. We recently got a weird female version of The Hangover which nobody wants to see, if nobody wants to see the newest Hangover film, they aren't going to want to see The Hangover 4.5 with an all female cast.
Posted Image
Piss off, ghost!
Posted Image
Rest in Peace, OS.

Welcome to the Gallery
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
NateDog
Member Avatar
We have arrived.
I won't weigh in on this "debate" but all I can say is most views I've seen regarding the movie simply say it's not very entertaining and that the two protagonists don't actually seem to feature as much or have as much depth as the "secondary" cast.
Watch this space.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
The Baneposter
Member Avatar
Only me

there is literally nothing wrong with this movie. It seems like good dumb fun just aimed at a female audience; and suddenly good dumb fun is not okay when it's aimed at a different demographic :rolleyes:

Case in point:
moron
 
Is not lack of creativity, its just that no one wants to watch their propaganda.


Calling out Hollywood for a lack of creativity in a year where we're got You Were Never Really Here is grossly off point. Creativity is not dead - it never did; just know where to look. You will not find an artistic masterpiece in an Oceans film and if that's what you were looking for it's your fault and no one else's.
Posted Image
Spoiler: click to toggle
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
doubleo sigint
Member Avatar
I just wanna see you shine 'cause I know you are a Stargirl

Why does hollyweird keep revisiting franchises created in a period when POC/women were not heavily featured? If you want to feature people of colour and women more, then create original or existing content that predominantly features POC/women stop going back to old white/male dominated franchises because of nostalgia money then ruin said nostalgia by casting people that look and feel nothing like the characters of old for virtue signaling diversity points all the while lowering the standards of POC/women by making them black/genderbent versions of white/male literature.

POC & women can’t have our own original literature today, that could arguably be better because we're too busy riding white male coat tails because that's the trend.

Black Panther; THAT'S HOW YOU FUCKING DO IT! Not black version of The Little Mermaid or women's version of Ghostbusters.
Waiting for Shenmue III like...
Posted Image
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Jassassino
Member Avatar
Avocados at law.

The Baneposter
Jun 18 2018, 05:11:15 PM
there is literally nothing wrong with this movie. It seems like good dumb fun just aimed at a female audience; and suddenly good dumb fun is not okay when it's aimed at a different demographic :rolleyes:
There IS a problem with this and the recent trend of gender-swapped franchises, which is that primarily female ensemble cast films piggy-back off previously male-dominated successes, which in turn continue to show female audiences that masculine imitation is the only way you'll ever be 'good'. Its utter bullshit that there isn't a desire to make entirely new IPs and franchises with female casts. These films don't even explore gender in their contexts and seem to ignore creating debate on the topic. Even relatively simple films intended on the same audiences that the Ghost Busters remake targeted like She's The Man and Whip It generate some sort of commentary on the topic.
Posted Image
Piss off, ghost!
Posted Image
Rest in Peace, OS.

Welcome to the Gallery
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Gray Panther
Member Avatar
Grayer than Yaeger
The Baneposter
Jun 18 2018, 05:11:15 PM
there is literally nothing wrong with this movie. It seems like good dumb fun just aimed at a female audience; and suddenly good dumb fun is not okay when it's aimed at a different demographic :rolleyes:

Case in point:
moron
 
Is not lack of creativity, its just that no one wants to watch their propaganda.


Calling out Hollywood for a lack of creativity in a year where we're got You Were Never Really Here is grossly off point. Creativity is not dead - it never did; just know where to look. You will not find an artistic masterpiece in an Oceans film and if that's what you were looking for it's your fault and no one else's.
'You Were Never Really Here' is on my list I mentioned of movies to watch this year. I didn't say that creativity has disappeared, I said that it's going outside of Hollywood. I don't mind digging for movies like 'You Were Never Really Here', I'd just like to see them get more recognition. There's nothing wrong with Ocean's 8 except that it's unimaginative, and the author of the NYTimes article I linked above is saying the exact same thing, and she's a woman in fact.

By all means make more movies with diverse casts (women, black, minorities etc), just be a bit more creative with the material. Otherwise it just looks like, to quote a Bowie lyric, "same old thing in brand new drag".
Edited by Gray Panther, Jun 18 2018, 06:55:19 PM.
Posted Image
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Edgelord
Member Avatar
A nutjob without borders

Women should be stuck where they should be. Eye candy and for the leading male to fuck.

Amarite guys
Edited by Edgelord, Jun 19 2018, 10:12:10 PM.
BEFORE THY BECOMES SALTY WITH THE TEARS OF BEING OFFENDED.
BEHOLD THE FIELD IN WHICH I GROW MY FUCKS TO GIVE.
LAY THINE EYES UPON IT AND SEE THAT IT IS BARREN
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
doubleo sigint
Member Avatar
I just wanna see you shine 'cause I know you are a Stargirl

Worked for Bond for over 50 years.
Waiting for Shenmue III like...
Posted Image
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
The Baneposter
Member Avatar
Only me

Jass
Why should they acknowledge gender though? why does every movie with some kind of minority/underrepresented group need to justify its existence? I know this isn't your intention or your point what so ever; but it's kind of like how people always want gay representation to have a ''reason'' in their media because you can't possibly have people just...be gay. Why cant it be, like I said - dumb fun? I certainly don't expect thought provoking commentary on toxic masculinity and male social hierarchy when I watch The Expendables; why should I expect something deep out of Ocean's 8?

Edited by The Baneposter, Jun 20 2018, 09:57:03 AM.
Posted Image
Spoiler: click to toggle
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous)
ZetaBoards - Free Forum Hosting
Create a free forum in seconds.
Learn More · Register for Free
« Previous Topic · Movies & T.V Chat · Next Topic »
Add Reply

User Color Code
Admin · Global Moderator · Forum Moderator · Member · Validating · Banned